Tolkien Orc Kitbash p.24 - Second batch of Uruk-Hai, and more trolls painted.

[Hammers]

The reference in The Battle of the Fords of Isen "In Isenguard as yet only the heavy and clumsy mail of the Orcs was made, by them for their own uses". This doesn't mean this mail wasn't made by orc smiths on a massed produced standardised basis. Surely this would to be the most efficient way to equip a large army being masterminded by Saruman.

When I say standardised, I didn’t mean identical. There would have been some variation between smithies. Axes and spears would be used according to preference. I didn’t mean they would all have just swords for example. The iron collar might have been a badge of rank

As my comments above really. Just to add though, as the army of Mordor was so vast there would likely be variations across the whole force but no so much in specific units.

When I say professional, I meant they were full time soldiers. Even professional soldiers are known to mutiny, desert and behave without discipline when circumstances dictate.

I am of similar thought as you, general. To arm the massed ranks orcs, both Mordor and Isengard would supply their troops fairly standardised and cheap equipment. If they were individualised it would be because of a need to repair, decorate or improve them.

On top of that, Tolkien seem to have attributed to Saruman the vice of industrialisation in all its most negative aspects. The soldiery are more specialised (sapper, pikemen, light rangers, shield breakers). The Isengarders seem less chaotic, more disciplined and instilled with a corps-de-espirit.

Mordor seems to have relied more on numbers.  Saruman aimed to do more with less, so to speak.

I think the PJ trilogy captures this quite well.

[jamesmanto]

[q]The soldiery are more specialised (sapper, pikemen, light rangers, shield breakers). The Isengarders seem less chaotic, more disciplined and instilled with a corps-de-espirit.[/q]

That's more the movie. There's just as many examples of specialisation in the Mordor forces in the books. The scout  and the larger fighting orc for example.

But the essence is correct; Saruman has been seduced by the allure of industrialisation and his mind is full of wheels now.

Mass produced before factories still allowed a lot of variation. You don't have machines and die stamping churning out 1000s of identical pieces. Everything is still hand made, just in huge quantities. You might get some 'assembly line' going with. Craftsman A does one job over and over, sending the items to the next craftsman who does the next job and so on  until each item is finished.

[Hobgoblin]

Nothing like a good orc debate to avert the miseries of work for a while! 

I am of similar thought as you, general. To arm the massed ranks orcs, both Mordor and Isengard would supply their troops fairly standardised and cheap equipment. If they were individualised it would be because of a need to repair, decorate or improve them.

Two things here, though. First, the equipment of Mordor orcs that we actually see doesn't seem to be "standard issue". Take the orcish weapons we see in most detail: the knives. We see the knives of three Mordor orcs up close. One is black with a "jagged" and "saw-edged" blade; another has a hideously ornate handle carved with a face; yet another has a long red blade. That doesn't suggest 'standard-issue' weapons, but something more like the direction that illustrators and miniature designers have tended to take (Grishnakh's knife always seems very Kev Adams to me!).

Second, the milieu setting is (effectively) early medieval. Yes, we get anachronisms now and then, and yes, the orcs seem to be a bit more advanced than humans when it comes to making nasty things. But I don't think that there's anything to indicate that orcs have some sort of mass-production technique for mail, scimitars, knives and conical helms. The mention of Isengard's "smithies" and "armouries"  imply lots and lots of workshops, presumably with lots and lots of orcs (or slaves) working in them. But within those smithies, wouldn't the gear just be made in the same way as in the smithies of the real Dark Ages - with all the variation that that implies? Those knives imply craftsmanship (of a horrid kind) rather than mass production.

If anything, there's a strong argument for orcish equipment being much more varied than what we see among Men. The very fact that Frodo and Sam are able to pass themselves off as orcs while wearing orcish gear in a makeshift fashion points to that.

On top of that, Tolkien seem to have attributed to Saruman the vice of industrialisation in all its most negative aspects. The soldiery are more specialised (sapper, pikemen, light rangers, shield breakers). The Isengarders seem less chaotic, more disciplined and instilled with a corps-de-espirit.

They do seem to pride themselves on their discipline and training, but are they really that specialised? We don't hear about dedicated sappers, merely that "the Orcs have brought a blasting-fire", and I don't recall any light rangers: the Isengard orcs all seem to be fast-moving, undersized, bow-armed heavy infantry (apart from those on wolves).

The main divisions of Saruman's army seem to be orcs (as above); Dunlendings (unarmoured, some with pikes/spears, some on horses); and half-orcs (man-sized and thus harder-hitting heavy infantry). So, three or four types of infantry and two types of cavalry, with 'species' the main distinguishing factor.

Sauron's forces include orcs big and small (we don't see the latter in the Isengard armies - though, to be fair, the small ones that Sam and Frodo join don't seem to be the mainstay of Sauron's armies but rather some rearguard being thrown in to action as he empties Mordor); horsemen and footmen from Morgul; Haradrim on foot and horse, and the men of Far Harad; Mumakil; trolls; Variags; and Easterlings with axes.

Oddly enough, Sauron doesn't seem to use wolfriders (Tolkien wonders at one point in his drafts whether they are a Sarumanic innovation), but overall, his forces are much more varied than Saruman's. There's certainly more scope for a more varied wargame force with Mordor, I'd have thought.

armchair general - I suppose my point is just that we see enough variation in orcish gear in the text for Captain Blood's take to ring true. To the variation in equipment in the text, I'd add the use of words like "chief" and "chieftain" in the description of Mordor orcs (in Moria and at the Pelennor), which suggest a tribal aspect.

All that said, Tolkien does seem to portray the orcs in a couple of parallel ways. On the one hand, they're demonic Dark Age-type warriors, with "tribes", "chieftains" and "chiefs", a variety of savage-looking weaponry and perhaps a faint, mythologised echo of the Huns (including the connection with wolves). On the other, they're modern-sounding soldiers (specifically British-sounding, which ties in with Tolkien's letter to his son when the latter was in the forces: "a Hobbit amongst the Uruk-hai") with captains, battalions and "name and number".

So there's plenty of room for both a "warrior" and a "soldier" interpretation.

[armchairgeneral]

Nothing like a good orc debate to avert the miseries of work for a while! 

Two things here, though. First, the equipment of Mordor orcs that we actually see doesn't seem to be "standard issue". Take the orcish weapons we see in most detail: the knives. We see the knives of three Mordor orcs up close. One is black with a "jagged" and "saw-edged" blade; another has a hideously ornate handle carved with a face; yet another has a long red blade. That doesn't suggest 'standard-issue' weapons, but something more like the direction that illustrators and miniature designers have tended to take (Grishnakh's knife always seems very Kev Adams to me!).

Possibly although "officers" often procure their own equipment for better quality and to distinguish themselves from the rank and file

Second, the milieu setting is (effectively) early medieval. Yes, we get anachronisms now and then, and yes, the orcs seem to be a bit more advanced than humans when it comes to making nasty things. But I don't think that there's anything to indicate that orcs have some sort of mass-production technique for mail, scimitars, knives and conical helms. The mention of Isengard's "smithies" and "armouries"  imply lots and lots of workshops, presumably with lots and lots of orcs (or slaves) working in them. But within those smithies, wouldn't the gear just be made in the same way as in the smithies of the real Dark Ages - with all the variation that that implies? Those knives imply craftsmanship (of a horrid kind) rather than mass production.

In the early medieval setting, there is the Byzantium Empire for example who were known to have large scale armoury production facilities producing standardised equipment. Gondor has often been compared to Byzantium. The descriptions of the regular troops of Gondor would indicate they were issued with standard kit, so why not Isenguard and Mordor?

armchair general - I suppose my point is just that we see enough variation in orcish gear in the text for Captain Blood's take to ring true. To the variation in equipment in the text, I'd add the use of words like "chief" and "chieftain" in the description of Mordor orcs (in Moria and at the Pelennor), which suggest a tribal aspect.

All that said, Tolkien does seem to portray the orcs in a couple of parallel ways. On the one hand, they're demonic Dark Age-type warriors, with "tribes", "chieftains" and "chiefs", a variety of savage-looking weaponry and perhaps a faint, mythologised echo of the Huns (including the connection with wolves). On the other, they're modern-sounding soldiers (specifically British-sounding, which ties in with Tolkien's letter to his son when the latter was in the forces: "a Hobbit amongst the Uruk-hai") with captains, battalions and "name and number".

So there's plenty of room for both a "warrior" and a "soldier" interpretation.

Indeed, though I feel the more varied tribal orcs were from earlier times. The later evil armies due to the more cunning devices of the Dark Lord were more developed, organised and regular with the Uruk-Hai being more like regular soldiery as opposed to the earlier more irregular goblins of The Hobbit.

Also in periods when Sauron was defeated for a time (in the guise of the Necromancer) without any controlling intelligence, orcs would become more wild and tribal, being left to their own devices.

[Grumpy Gnome]

In regards to the use of the term “battalions”, this came to mind for me....

“When sorrows come, they come not single spies, but in battalions” was used by Claudius in Shakespeare play, Hamlet, Act IV, Scene V.

And on Wiki I found this...

The term was first used in Italian as battaglione no later than the 16th century. It derived from the Italian word for battle, battaglia. The first use of battalion in English was in the 1580s, and the first use to mean "part of a regiment" is from 1708.

Whilst I agree with AKULA in that in fantasy one can have a broad range of interpretations I currently tend to agree with Hobgoblin’s interpretation.

[armchairgeneral]

In regards to the use of the term “battalions”, this came to mind for me....

“When sorrows come, they come not single spies, but in battalions” was used by Claudius in Shakespeare play, Hamlet, Act IV, Scene V.

And on Wiki I found this...

The term was first used in Italian as battaglione no later than the 16th century. It derived from the Italian word for battle, battaglia. The first use of battalion in English was in the 1580s, and the first use to mean "part of a regiment" is from 1708.

I feel Tolkien’s understanding of the term, from his WW1 military experience, would be an organised regular military unit of a specific size i.e. circa 600. In The Battle of the Fords of Isen, he refers to Saruman’s Eastern force as “In the van were some Dunlending horsemen and a great pack of the dreadful Orcish wolfriders. Behind them came two battalions of the fierce Uruks, heavily armed but trained to move at great speed for many miles” This reads as orcs being organised in regular sized units and having been trained, as regular troops would be.

[Hammers]

That's more the movie. There's just as many examples of specialisation in the Mordor forces in the books. The scout  and the larger fighting orc for example.

No, that is not "more the movie". Tolkien wrote an essay about the Battle of Isen (foregoing the battle of the Hornburg). That, in combination with specialized troops mentioned in LotR makes a good case for Isengard.

[Wilgut Spleens]

What an enjoyable thread, so many ideas, a truly engrossing read. Tolkien was without doubt a master of the opaque description, which was his genius and one of the reasons why his fiction is so successful. With such economy of description each reader can provide his own imagery filling in the blank spaces with imagination, which is what he intended. In interviews when asked about details of armour or heraldry or what Terran period it most resembled he was evasive and suggested that it didn’t really matter that was for the reader to provide. Hobgoblin has an extensive knowledge of the lore of Orcery and has provided some reasoned arguments, strong ones, for the appearance and organisation of the Orcs as have many others here, the important thing is that they are whatever your imagination makes them. Every exposure to someone else’s view changes the way you think slightly. Angus McBride, Alan Lee, Peter Jackson/Weta, Ralph Bakshi all influence the way you imagine Tolkien’s world, each of them has read Tolkien and imagined something different. The descriptive style can only be scrutinised so far as it is the intent behind the words that is significant. Take that one word “black” used so often I think in many different ways, always open to interpretation. I like the idea of a coal black orc. Teflon black! And yes, used in the medieval manner, it could mean the colour of someone’s hair. Tolkien often hints rather than describes, it’s for the reader to fill in the blanks. Unless he’s talking about plants and then he leans towards prolixity
As for models of Orcs most are too big, too human sized/shaped and none of them have crooked enough legs! They should be stooped, long armed and bandy. Swarthy, sallow all open to interpretation which means any colour is good if its what you like. I imagine them to be all different sizes, mostly smaller than men with a few larger “heroes”. I liked the PJ slant on Isengard mass production, industrial style weaponry, as it’s always nice to see someone else ideas, but I have to reject it. My orcs are all individuals. They have hand crafted individual weapons.
They are proponents of “Real war”, rather than “True war” Cossacks rather than House guards, never far from a bit of brigandage. Unruly mobs whipped into line. Fierce in mass, cowardly when alone.
Here are some of my kit bashes from last year, I eagerly await the Atlantic Goblins and the Oathmark Orcs, they are not of Captain Bloods standard though, but may prove of interest

[Elk101]

Don't hide these away on the Captain's thread, set up a new thread and I'll put them there and you can add to it. Actually, it would be really good to see a number of threads on the same theme. It might encourage more of us to join in with our own orc kitbashes.

[Wilgut Spleens]

ok, thank you! I have few pics of them pre paint I can add too

[Elk101]

Definitely. Get it set up and I'll move them across. Let's see some more of these threads too.

[Wilgut Spleens]

tis done!

[Grumpy Gnome]

And again my thoughts echo that of Wilgut.

Something I have in my mind of the military culture of Orcs is Zulu military culture, tribal warriors but with some like the Uruk-hai having more discipline and training.... like Zulus after the Shaka reforms. Impis often are compared to Regiments but could also be compared by some to battalions.

The thing with Tolkien and PJ/WETA/GW is that where things may diverge some of us are forgiving if we think it looks cool. Hence why I am more forgiving of the LOTR movies than the Hobbit movies. But if you study Tolkien, really live and breath his work, then I think the divergences can grow increasingly more distracting.

I recall being irked by Isengard Uruk-hai having pikes at Helm's Deep when I watched the movie for the first time.... but I had forgotten Tolkien had specifically written of pikes at the Ford of Isen. That said,  I am still irked by cavalry plowing head on into pikes and shattering their formation. The Rohan charge was more believable in the Pelennor scene. Of course it would have been better if they had struck the Orc flank unprepared to receive a charge.

[Captain Blood]

Well, I decided to end this ugly year on some ugly orcs 

Having been much waylaid by ECW and WOTR resurrections over the last six months, the poor old orcs went onto the back burner. But their time has come...

To remind you, in my quest for orcs that Tolkien might have recognised as vaguely resembling his creations, I have kitbashed these primarily from the Oathmark Goblin and Victrix Saxon sets. But with a lot of other parts thrown in too...

Four more painted:









And the orc horde - somewhat modest - to date... 



The next five to be painted...



Then I suppose I might do a few more. If I can be bothered

And keeping Legolas's warning in mind...

[Belisarius]

These last ones are terrific, an Orc hunting party methinks . Not sure about the bassinet helmet on the primed one , though . The sallow flesh tones are spot on  , too .  Dragon Rampant rules , perhaps ?