Kriegsmarine "Marines" in WW2

[Poiter50]

Did the Kriegsmarine have Marines as such in WW2? I'm looking at the Tsuba packs for the German Revolution and wondering how well they would fit for shipwrecked sailors in the Norway campaign?

[carlos marighela]

Yes, a company’s worth that saw action at Gdansk and performed rather poorly. They were part of the assault force for Westerplatte on the first day of the war. Served mostly as coastal security forces thereafter. Try searching Marinestosstruppkompanie. Naval rig with tin hats and infantry kit.

The sailors at Narvik were kitted out with captured uniforms and weapons from the nearby Norwegian barracks, captured early in the piece. Probably best off using the Gorgon Norwegians with head swaps and the occasional Empress or Brigade Games sailor.

[Plynkes]

"Marines" is an interesting term, and I guess it depends on what you mean by it. People use that word a lot to refer to shipboard soldiers, as in Napoleonic times. But the Kaiserliche Marine's Seebataillone and the Kriegsmarine's Marinestrosstruppekompanie would be better described as naval infantry.

I suppose I am being ultra picky there, but on the colonial board I have noticed over the years people thinking of and using Seebataillone as shipboard marines used for landing parties and ship defence. This was not the case, ordinary sailors performed those roles (don't know about WW2 specifically, but I think it would be the same). It doesn't really make a difference to anything, but we need to be a bit mindful and specific as to what we mean when talking about marines. The USMC and Royal Marines in WW2 weren't the same thing as the marines on Jack Aubrey's HMS Surprise in 1813.

[carlos marighela]

Well, er, yes and no or  perhaps, to quote Evelyn Waugh, a former Royal Marine, ‘up to a point Lord Copper’.

There were detachments of marines up to, throughout and even after the Second World War aboard RN and USN warships. Typically in gunnery roles and mostly capital ships. The USMC even formed provisional battalions and landed them in the Caribbean in the twenties and thirties. These were the fleet marines, drawn from shipboard detachments.

Well before the Napoleonic era, Royal marines were formed into battalion sized units and used very much as they would be today, as amphibious landing troops. True of the War of Jenkins Ear as it was of the War of 1812. Colonial Marines were even formed in both.Mostly white Americans in the former and black ones in the latter.

The Germans were driven up to the First World War by a need for troops that could be deployed to the colonies and were ‘German’ as opposed to Saxon, Prussian, Bavarian etc, the Imperial army being a conglomerate of troops from different states within the empire. The Navy was the natural conduit as it was organised as a national, unitary organisation. One should think of the sea battalions as colonial expeditionary troops not as marines. The WW2 German marines were indeed naval infantry or marines proper but such a tiny force and not an especially efficient one that they usually go unnoticed.

[Huascar]

As mentioned most of the shipwrecked crew at Narvik were given Norwegian uniforms captured from the towns reserve depots as the shipboard uniforms they had were ruined an/or not suited to the environment. When Kriegsmarine were used as infantry they had dark blue uniforms very similar to the Heer or in LW were just issued standard Heer uniforms. Sailors rig was generally only seen in emergency situations like Dieppe, Arnhem and port/coastal defence actions. I have also seen some pics of troops still in sailor uniforms in the Defence of Berlin, as a contingent of Kriegsmarine reinforcements were some of the last troops flown in. For what it’s worth I am using my Tsuba sailors as Hungarian sailors in the defence of Budapest.

[traveller]

If your looking for miniatures, do not forget this little nice pack 

https://store.warlordgames.com/products/kriegsmarine-squad

[Jemima Fawr]

The Germans formed 'Marine Infantry Divisions' in 1945, but these were essentially just spare Kriegsmarine personnel re-trained as infantry to fight on land, in much the same way as the Luftwaffe had formed 'Luftwaffe Field Divisions' from spare personnel to reinforce the Army (the Luftwaffe divisions were actually absorbed into the Army from November 1944).  The Marine Divisions wore essentially the same uniforms as the army, though with gold-coloured badges and buttons instead of the army's aluminium colouring.  Officers and SNCOs might wear naval jackets and/or caps as a personal affectation.

The Royal Marines maintained their traditional shipboard role right through WW2 and only a portion of them were Commando-trained.  The Royal Marines Armoured Support Group was non-Commando and late in 1944, two Royal Marine Infantry Brigades (116 & 117 Bdes) were sent to the Netherlands to serve as infantry - these were not Commandos.  It was only after WW2 that the Royal Marines became an all-Commando formation (with the exception of RM Bandsmen, who remain non-Commando).

[Poiter50]

Thanks all, particularly Huascar and Traveller. I am not interested in this instance in nations other than Germany's Kriegsmarine personnel. I am thinking of using the Tsuba German Revolution sailors to flesh out a force of "green" Sailors/Marines from the damaged Destroyers that finished up aground near Narvik, disembarked their survivors who then formed ad hoc units for various purposes. I also have the Warlord Kriegsmarines which are nice figures to mix in. I think I have some spare heads to fit to the Warlord Winter Germans in greatcoats which I believe will be the sprue with the July WI mag. May need to buy several mags to get some cheap sprues as well as an interesting read post Covid (well it is getting that way in Oz).

[V]

Yes... the Marine Infanterie Divisions who fought in April 45 around Rethem and Venlo, and who fought very hard too, would look pretty much like normal Heer troops.

Actual troops in shore rig limits you somewhat to Danzig in 39, and then Narvik in 40 in any real numbers really. Some coastal artillery units did see action, but again they wear Heer uniforms.

Late War though, a number of pictures of captured troops in Berlin show KM personnel in Naval uniforms, likely from the HQ building and associated offices than any combat formation.

[Truscott Trotter]

Yup they did and I have pictures to prove it!

However if you are looking more adhoc then yes Tsuba - some from Warlords Kreigsmarine and don't forget Empress and Artizan have armed German sailors

[Cat]

Off on a tangent for marines in other battles — I've come across reference to two battalions of as part of the defences at the Küsten Canal.

"German defences in the area below Bad Zwischenahn comprised two battalions of "marines" - naval personnel fighting as infantry "
https://www.canadiansoldiers.com/history/battlehonours/northwesteurope/kustencanal.htm

On To Victory by Mark Zuehike describes them as Marine Fortress Troops from Wilhelmshaven.

Haven't come across specific uniform info or them, had always just presumed they were still in naval uniform as they were garrisoning the port.

[ichwillauch]

In the Norway campaign an ad hoc unit was formed from the crews of the sunken destroyers with around 2600 men. This unit was organized in 04.40 and disbanded in 07.40. The unit is called "Marine Regiment Narvik" or "Marine Regiment Bey" or "Marine Regiment Berger". It was organized in four Bataillons: Bataillon Holtorf (3 companies), Bataillon Thiele (3 companies), Bataillon Zenker (2 companies) and Bataillon Arnim (2 companies). In my opinion the Tsuba miniatures will fit in. The Warlord Kriegsmarine Squad won't fit for early wars   

[cuprum]

On June 24-26, 1941, two German naval battalions took part in the assault on a small Soviet naval base in the Latvian city of Liepaja. At the same time, one of these battalions was defeated and fled from the battlefield. I know that there was a shortage of heavy weapons in these battalions, but I don’t know what kind of uniform they had.

[carlos marighela]

Well, worse comes to worst, you could always use them as

a) Crew for the Altmark and square them off against Empress’ Royal Navy figures. Admittedly that would require building at least the deck plan of Altmark and HMS Cossack, which, admittedly, wouldn’t be small.

b) Crew for fictionalised events involving the various German merchant raiders (Hilfskreuzers). The Germans raided Nauru and Ocean Island and only bad weather/ poor sea conditions prevented an actual landing. You could have Komet or Orion or Kormoran raiding Westernport or Albany and use the upcoming Eureka Volunteer Defence Corps as the plucky defenders.

c) Have a jolly fun game of Brown on Resolution, either the film or the book version.

d) Norwegian navy proxies for 1940. Norwegian sailors also saw action on land during the German landings.

e) Paint ‘em in khaki and use them as Czechoslovakian Danube Patrol sailors for semi-fictional use against invading Germans, Poles and Hungarians in 1938/39. Added bonus is that you can build some really cute little river monitors and patrol boats.

[commissarmoody]

I vote for the Cezch Danube riverine force.