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Author Topic: Italian troops of the Social War?  (Read 1921 times)

Offline WuZhuiQiu

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Italian troops of the Social War?
« on: June 11, 2020, 04:34:17 AM »
How might the Italian troops of the Social War have been organized and equipped?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_War_(91%E2%80%9388_BC)

Offline Wiegraf

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Re: Italian troops of the Social War?
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2020, 07:42:28 AM »
It was a slave revolt happening right after the Marian reforms  ,so you'd have the "caesarian" look, or remnants of the olden days, I am sure. A few slaves decked out in various weapons, maybe some even still wearing shackles , and some looted gear.

This is speculation on my part, but it would make sense to me from a looting, pillaging, and anti-roman force roaming around Italia.

Offline dadlamassu

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Re: Italian troops of the Social War?
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2020, 09:06:18 AM »
My reading is that the "Social War" was, as has been said, after the Marian reforms so I would expect that the Roman Legions would be formed on that basis.  Their enemies, allies and colonies may still be organised and equipped along their own lines, some may be using pre-Marian (Polybian) organisations and styles. 

However, my reading also would indicate that it was not a "slave revolt" but more of a conflict between some allies (socii) wanting full Roman citizenship rights.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_War_(91%E2%80%9388_BC)

I bought "Greece and Rome at War" by Peter Connolly in "The Works" for £7.99 recently and it has quite a good section on the Romans, Latins, Colonies and Allies covering dress, equipment and fighting styles.

To answer your questions:
Organisation and dress
Romans - Caesarian Roman figures and Marian cohort organisation.  Armour and equipment now being largely supplied by the state.
The Latins mostly remained loyal and the enemies, the "Italian confederates", probablyhad older dress and equipment with the older Polybian manipular organisation.  Maybe some of the tribes would still be using even more traditional styles of dress and fighting.  Armour and equipment was provided by the individual. 

Thus your "Loyal" armies would have a core of Roman Legionaries in cohorts dressed and equipped similarly in the centre and their allies on the flanks.
The "Italian Confederation" may well be a mix of the older dress and equipment drawn up in the traditional, velites, hastati, principes and triarii style. 

Hope this helps.

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Offline Plynkes

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Re: Italian troops of the Social War?
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2020, 09:18:13 AM »
Not a slave revolt, that's the three Servile Wars. I'm Spartacus!

An odd one, really. The allies wanted citizenship, but got a war instead. The Romans won and then gave the allies citizenship. "That'll teach 'em!", the Romans said. Couldn't they have just skipped the "war" part?

These Romans are crazy, as Obelix used to say.

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Upon our prey we steal...

Offline AdamPHayes

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Re: Italian troops of the Social War?
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2020, 10:13:40 PM »
How might the Italian troops of the Social War have been organized and equipped?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_War_(91%E2%80%9388_BC)

Same as the Romans.

Offline WuZhuiQiu

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Re: Italian troops of the Social War?
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2020, 03:13:47 AM »
Same as the Romans.

As non-citizens, would the Marian reforms have applied to them?

Offline dadlamassu

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Re: Italian troops of the Social War?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2020, 06:50:17 AM »
As non-citizens, would the Marian reforms have applied to them?
The Marian Reforms created Legions of salaried, professional troops drawn from Roman Citizens of all classes and wealth.  Because the Legions were now almost entirely heavy infantry non-Citizens (Latini [non-Roman Latins] and Socii [Allies]) were also recruited (on lower pay) as auxiliaries in roughly equal numbers and the formations were partnered to a Citizen Legion.  The cavalry were almost entirely provided by Latini or Socii.  The more specialised troops such as archers, slingers etc were auxiliaries.  As far as I can make out the auxiliaries were not organised into the cohort system as they were after the Augustinian reforms.  The Socii in particular seem to have retained tribal dress and fighting styles, Caesar, for example, employed tribal Gallic cavalry and infantry.

Offline guitarheroandy

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Re: Italian troops of the Social War?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2020, 08:45:39 AM »
The Marian reforms were all about creating the professional Roman army, rather than the previous variant and recruited legions from the citizens as has been said. It is my personal belief that the 'triarii' of the Polybian legion had probably been armed with pila for a while at this point, in response to the type of warfare being fought (e.g. in Spain, Numidia, etc) and where the cohort was becoming more the norm than the maniple as the key tactical unit. Remember also that the Triplex Acies three line system we associate with the Polybian legion was retained into the Imperial period - the Romans often deployed and fought in 3 lines, although two lines was used on occasion, so we don't need to assume that tactics were that much different after Marius, as the cohort was already becoming 'a thing' long before him and three lines, with replacement of tired troops with fresh ones, was a thing long after him.
As for the Socii dress/gear: Very much like the Roman legions, but possibly a little less standardised would be my guess. If doing it in 28mm, I'd probably use a  mix of Foundry's unarmored Caesarian legionaries and armoured ones (but avoiding the ones wearing the Gallic helmets) with a few more 'typical' Italian models in there (e.g. A&A or Victrix Samnites) just to differentiate them from the Romans a bit (I doubt much of the old pectoral armour would have been in use any more and even the helmets would probably be wrong by this point too, but it'd look good on the table). Essentially, I'm guessing they'd all have been armed with javelins (including some pila-type weapons), scutum and either a sword or retaining a short spear to thrust, as this was the typical 'Italian' style of gear from the 4th century BC onwards.

Offline cadbren

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Re: Italian troops of the Social War?
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2020, 10:12:52 PM »
Probably the same as the Romans. The Italian allies for centuries had been providing half the troops for Roman armies, especially cavalry. They sourced their own gear but you can imagine a degree of uniformity in copying the equipment of the superior force - the Romans. They were entitled to a 50/50 share of war booty which means captured enemy arms and armour were just as likely to end up in the temples of Allied cities as those with Roman citizenship.

If you look at groups like the Samnites, they were looking like Romans before the Romans.

Marius granted citizenship to the Italian allies that fought with him, claiming he couldn't tell the difference between Romans and other Italians on the battlefield (I assume he's referring to general culture but mainly loyalty here rather than they looked the same). Italian legions were likely reorganised at the same time, why only reorganise half your army afterall, doesn't make sense.

Offline WuZhuiQiu

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Re: Italian troops of the Social War?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2020, 12:00:35 AM »
According to one source of unknown reliability, sometime prior to the Social War, Italian allies may have provided recruits for Roman legions. Should the non-Romans serving with the legions have left them (deserted or retired), would they have been able to take their individual kit with them? Doctrine, tactics, and organization would likely have been transmitted, and may well have been similar to some extent, but might the Italians who fought against the Romans have been equipped in a not-quite-Roman way?

Offline dadlamassu

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Re: Italian troops of the Social War?
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2020, 08:21:33 AM »
I have enjoyed this thread as it prompted me to go back and to my books yesterday.  Unfortunately there was nothing specific to the organisation of the various combatant forces involved in the Social Wars.  I have concluded that this probably means that there was little difference between the the opposing armies.  So I delved as deep as I could in one day using my books and the internet where I could do some cross referencing.

1.  There appears to be little difference between a "Roman", "Latin" or "Allied" legion in dress, tactics and doctrine. (Contrary to what I thought before.)  It makes sense that they trained, dressed and were equipped in the same way. 
2.  The legion cohorts had about 480 Legionaries and maybe (my sources vary on this) 120 light infantry and/or servants.  The First Cohort of each legion was larger.  Some sources imply that these extra men were light troops, others that they were support troops and specialists (cavalry, slingers, archers, light infantry, engineers, siege workers, armourers etc). 
3.  Legionaries were paid and drawn from all classes and on retirement legionaries were given a grant of land often they formed Colonies of veterans.  These men were a valuable resource to maintaining and protecting the growing empire.  None of my sources explicitly said that the veteran Legionary took his arms and equipment with him.  That said, it seems that the implication was that they took at least some equipment.

Offline Easy E

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Re: Italian troops of the Social War?
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2020, 05:01:30 PM »
The biggest difference is probably the number of feathers in their helmets.   lol lol lol lol

Otherwise armor maybe slightly different as chain versus triangle/circle breastplates.  Itallic tribes tended to use the triangle/circle breastplates but that maybe much earlier than this time frame.
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