HoTT - strongholds?

[Bloggard]

trying to find a small units (skirmish) set of rules that suits. Finally looking at HoTT.

found a pdf of 2.1, and have a h/copy on the way from Amazon.

anyhow: apart from the perfunctory / 'colourless' use of magic, one thing I'm not liking the sound of is the apparently immutable element of attack/defence of a stronghold ... ? I must be missing something - it surely can't be that every game is limited to this set-up / objective?

[SteveBurt]

A stronghold isn’t an objective - you don’t have to attack it. However, if you capture it, it will certainly hasten the demise of the other army. I have a set of expanded magic rules for HOTT which I could dig out and post here if there is interest.

[Bloggard]

thanks.

I'm definitely interested in your expanded rules, and would be very grateful if you would post, or send (PM etc)?

reading through 2.1, and not sure as it stands.

[James Morris]

I wouldn’t call HoTT a skirmish set - more a battle set that uses a small number of minis.  It was designed around DBA to offer a fast-playing battle, but obviously cuts out a lot of potential granularity/ flavour  as a result. Because the standard DBA set up was two ancient armies fighting a battle with a camp on each side, so the HoTT set up included a stronghold. The DBA series has never featured a set of standard scenarios, which might be more what you’re looking for. That said, it provides a good fun game and gets a battle resolved in good time.

Sorry if that wasn’t as useful as you may have been hoping, but I thought it’d be helpful to explain a bit about why HoTT is what it is.

What specifically are you looking for in a set of rules?

Ps: love the Haddock/ flying fish avatar!

[Hobgoblin]

The stronghold and the attacker/defender set-up are the defaults for HotT, but there's no reason to restrict yourself to those. You can use other scenarios (e.g. those in Neil Thomas's One-Hour Wargames) and different victory conditions. The game also works fine with much larger armies - e.g. 36 AP per commander.

I wouldn't say that HotT is really a small-unit or skirmish game, though. While the figure scale is unspecified, I think it's fairly clear that one miniature is meant to represent scores or hundreds of men. It certainly plays as much more of a big-battle game than (e.g.) Dragon Rampant or Saga, even though it generally uses fewer figures.

[Ultravanillasmurf]

I would agree that DBA/HotT is not a skirmish game (even with the minimal figure count).

The figures are representative of the units, there are some surprising and inventive armies for HotT on this forum.

I had a set I made using one cm ground scale rather than one inch and card tokens rather than figures. We used to play quick games during lunch at college.

[Bloggard]

thanks for the replies chaps, interesting info'.

yes, this whole 'skirmish / small units' thing is a bit confused (well, for me) these days, so thanks for the clarification there (and regarding the Stronghold aspect).

Having read through dragon rampant again today, (as well as reviews of Warlords of Erehwon, and briefly at my copy of Saga age of magic), I'm not sure what I'm after is out there, with DR probably being closest (with some house rules re: activation etc).

What attracts me to HOTT is that it looks like a 'proper' wargame with units (as an old timer the look of multiple figs on bases remains an ideal) but then as you've explained above, that's because it is a 'proper' wargame ... miniaturised, if you'll forgive the pun.

I'm not keen on the individual 'bunches' / groups of figures and buckets of dice approach which characterises all the other rules I mention above ... but suspect it's effectively unavoidable - and I know people do use movement trays etc at least in part with them. But then, while you can, all of the rules say that the game is designed for individually based figures, and at some point trays / multi-bases are going to 'get in the way' ...

I guess I'm after a massed battles look / vibe, but with no more than the 50 or so figs a side that the likes of DR are aimed at. That might be thought to be HoTT - but now having read the rules, I'm not too keen. Don't like the lack of casualties and the recoil / flee / destroyed mechanic. It is, I think, lacking a bit of crunch as mentioned above, and I'm not a particularly crunchy character ...

So, suppose I want the look and feel of a good old massed battle 28mm game, but with the troop count and narrative / cinematic feel / detail of a skirmish game. I may be expecting too much 

Actually, I thought Bladestorm 2nd edition was going to do for me, covering as it does everything from RPG (lite) encounters and gameplay, through to pretty darn crunchy unit battles, with everything inter-relating, but I've had to accept it's too involved, and that I'll never take the time it would need to internalise / digest the system.

Anyhow - a lot of blather there - any further comments / advice much appreciated.

and @ James Morris - yes good ol' Haddock has always been my idol (at least in Londale Turner's brilliant english translations).

[capthugeca]

Have you had a look at Brent Spivey's Mayhem?
They have similarities to HotT in that each unit is a base but far more variety in the types of troops and method of fighhting and destruction and there is more magic (though I don't use the latter).
I haven't played many games with them but the games I have had have been enjoyable. You can see a couple of AAR's on my blog (http://tenmilwargames.blogspot.com)

Actually selling for just 3.00USD for the next 24 hours on Wargames Vault!
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/110359/Mayhem

[Pattus Magnus]

The search for the ideal set of rules is an ongoing challenge for all of us!

Since you have already ordered HoTT, there is a blog post by Hobgoblin that you might find worth reading: https://hobgoblinry.blogspot.com/2020/01/microhott-hordes-of-things-with.html?m=1


The gist of it is that Hobgoblin used a large number of single-based figures to play the HoTT rules with very few changes and it ended up working pretty smoothly for a large skirmish/small battle game. It’s an intriguing notion and might help you get some mileage out of HoTT as a base for games closer to what you are looking for.

[Bloggard]

@capthugeca
didn't he use to be in one of the star trek spin-offs !
anyway, picked that up - thanks for the suggestion.

@Pattus Magnus
will check out Hobgoblin's post, thanks, but I'd prefer not to use single-based figures (without any kind of sabot etc) really.

[Pattus Magnus]

Ah, fair enough re. the preference for multi-based. I think Hobgoblin’s approach was meant to get more mileage out of his single-based figs, rather than an attempt to avoid multi-based. Perhaps his overall approach would still be useful, though, in that you could use a large number of multi bases. HoTT does have rules for big battles, also, but Hobgoblin’s approach is a little different (fewer initiative points to work with, so players benefit more from using group activations effectively).

[Ultravanillasmurf]

If you do not want to play with buckets of dice, there is Oathmark.

Maximum number of dice in combat is five, additional ranks reduce the target number.

[Bloggard]

yes, will need to read his post more carefully.

Oathmark - unfortunately with my feelings these days, just too stereotypically 'tolkienesque' in its presentation (although I appreciate it then tries to subvert that a little in terms of possible alliances - but no, the gameworld is just too limited and prescriptive).

one thing I like about HoTT is the generic troop types approach which can be adapted to just about anything. Age of Magic is similar in that respect, although with much fewer catagories as such ...

It's one thing I don't like about Dragon Rampant - where for some reason the author (repeatedly) exhorts you to create as stereotypical a range of fantasy 'races' as possible - no idea why he felt the need to do that.
But... I'm feeling that I like the general cut of DR's jib, and I may just have to try and bodge some 'unit' rules into it, adapting movement and facings etc accordingly. Or something like that    (hey, it'll be easy, right  ... ?)

thanks, gents, for the continued thoughts.

[Neldoreth]

Have you looked at Kings of War?

I've played Kings of War with DBA bases (in both 15mm and 28mm) and enjoyed it quite a bit. On the surface Kings of War has a specific collection of armies that you have to choose from, but if you look a bit deeper you'll see a great generic set of rules with options for stats for any army you can dream of. The army composition rules are pretty great and straight forward, and the mechanics are way simpler than HoTT

Kings of War also has a pretty decent magic infrastructure as well!

Thanks
n

[Ultravanillasmurf]

I have to admit that I did not find the Oathmark rules particularly Tolkeinesque (I only have a dwarf sprue for non-human in the figure range so I cannot really judge the figures).

Of course, I have been a bit lax in not mentioning a forthcoming project.
https://crooked-dice.co.uk/7tv-fantasy-is-coming/