Franco-Prussian Wargaming

[Curassier]

With oodles of Perry goodness coming down the line what are people's thoughts about the best way of representing Franco-Prussian combat on the table ? I want something on a smaller scale than the "1871" Rules grand tactical approach but would like to be able to represent in some way multi battalion regiments. Do I go for say an eight-figure base per battalion, three of these representing a Regiment. Might any good ACW rules offer a starting point for adaptation.  What organisational and rules systems are existing F-P warmers using ?
JM

[Ray Rivers]

In doing research for my Franco-Prussian War armies I have seen folks using 6, 8 and 10 men per base, with each base representing a battalion. So for the French, that means 3 bases per regiment. For the Prussians, who had 4 battalions per regiment, you would need 4 bases.

That is why, in the end, I went for 6 men per base/battalion. A French regiment is then 3 bases of 6 for 18 men total, while a Prussian one will be 4 bases of 6 for 24 men. I went for the smallest number per base because the more men you have representing a battalion the greater the amount per regiment. So 10 men per battalion would require 30 for the French and 40 for the Prussians.

I also considered a single base per regiment. So for example, you could have a single base of 12 men for the French and of 16 for the Prussians. It is not a bad option actually.

You must also consider that both sides used independent battalions. Battalions and cavalry regiments as more or less 1/3rd the size of a regiment. So for me, with a base of 6 men per base/battalion, a Chasseur battalion would be represented by a single base of 6 men. A cavalry regiment would be 2 bases of 3 men each.

Tons of permutations here, so figuring out what scale you want your project to be is job number 1. I went with the lowest (I figure) amount of men practicable knowing that if I really liked the period, I could always increase the number of bases per battalion later, although 4 per base/battalion might be more optimum from a basing perspective because it would be easier to increase later on if you wanted.

As for rules, I think you can modify ACW rules, but you are going to need to figure out how to represent the Chassepot rifle and Krupp guns. I think you can use the rules for Gatling guns to represent the Mitrailleuse as it is a hand cranked multi-barrel weapon.

[vtsaogames]

I believe that both German and French regiments had 3 battalions. But the German battalions were 1,000 strong at the start of the campaign while French battalions tended to be ~750 strong. Their botched mobilzation left the other ~250 troops wandering around France trying to catch the next train to the front. Or taking advantage of the foul-ups to goof off. When the brass have no idea where you are...

Later, in the Republican phase, French battalions might be full strength (of raw recruits) while combat and disease had whittled the German units down to perhaps half their original strength. Those left were hardened veterans used to victory. The French forces would be stiffened with regiments du marche, regulars left behind during the chaotic opening days and the chair-borne units from the depots.

[Baron von Wreckedoften]

I think I shall wait for the (metal) Bavarians to come out and go for a Sharp Practice/Chain of Command approach.  Sorry, but if you're going to fiddle around with 6-10 figure battalions in 28mm, I feel you would be better off using counters - you could maybe have the rare opportunity to utilise a common figure/ground scale, similar to the old System 7 Napoleonic game (anyone remember that?).

[juergen c. olk]

we have or home rules adjusted to do 8 or 12 man battlions. Also some of the German minor states only had two  battalion regt's, ex. Hesse-darmstadt 25th division of the IX crps.It's really because we could not stop painting.we went to 12 man battalions..LOL.

[Ray Rivers]

I believe that both German and French regiments had 3 battalions. But the German battalions were 1,000 strong at the start of the campaign while French battalions tended to be ~750 strong.

Yes, of course you are correct.

Have no clue where I came up with 4 battalions per regiment for the Germans. 

[Curassier]

Thanks gentlemen - that is a useful start to the discussion.
I must say I have generally gone for units in two ranks but Juergen's photos look rather splendid.
JM

[Curassier]

Ray
Just to clarify, since both countries had three battalion regiments are you saying your Prusian ones are larger in size ?
Thanks. I also want to be able to represent a skirmish screen in front of each regiment.
JM

[black hat miniatures]

I am using 12 man battalions in a single rank (3 figs to a base) in 25mm and using Neil Thomas's 19th Century rules for most games and Field of Battle 3 for others...

Mike

[Ray Rivers]

Ray
Just to clarify, since both countries had three battalion regiments are you saying your Prusian ones are larger in size ?

I haven't got there yet, to be quite honest. I'm still trying to put together a French force and that is what I have been concentrated on so when that is done I'll go from there. I don't have the 1871 rules, but from what I understand these kinds of rules use bases as the basic unit no matter how many folks you put on them. I've also noticed that some folks, essentially, disregard history and have equal size units and depict cavalry and artillery with more bases than one would expect. I must admit, I'm doing that with my cavalry which should be 2 bases of 3 figures and instead am building 3 bases of 3 figures.

The basic bottom line for me though is, do I have the stamina/desire/fun, etc., to build the French force. If I do, then I will get a lot more serious.

Perhaps someone more familiar with the rule set, 1871, could pipe in.

[Curassier]

Thanks guys for the updates.
Will take a look at those rule suggestions.
JM

[vtsaogames]

Perhaps someone more familiar with the rule set, 1871, could pipe in.

I own a copy of 1870, have never used the rules but often read the historical data packed into the book. A quick look says they use 3 stands per infantry regiment, 2 per cavalry regiment. Number of figures per stand? Whatever you think looks good.

[Red Sveta]

The uniforms are great, the art from the period is great, but it was such a walk over for the Germans, it is difficult to wargame historically in my view, just so one sided. I think that skirmish actions of the republic period would be viable but then the splender of the bigger battles is lost. My first wargames army in the 80's were the Foundy Prussians and i loved the figures but the games became predictable as soon as the Prussian artillery turns up. I may still get a box of the new figures though

[waterproof]

Maybe this is the challenge to play around 1870.
It was certainly not a walk in the park for the German troops. The battles were won but the losses were very high. This was partly due to the French Chassepot rifle. It shot twice as far as the Dreyse rifle of the Prussians.  The mitrailleuse was poorly used and could not develop its full potential.
The victories of the Germans are not only due to the artillery. It is a combination of poor leadership on the French side, despite great bravery and the tactical and logistical superiority of the Germans.
But from 1871 onwards, German troops also reached their limits.
There are interesting possibilities on the console to play the French side as well.

[ChrisBBB]

it was such a walk over for the Germans, it is difficult to wargame historically in my view, just so one sided.

In the 'Bloody Big BATTLES!' rulebook (BBB), there are nine historical scenarios for the biggest FPW battles, and as many again freely available in the BBB group files. The approach we took for these was generally to take the historical result as a 'par score'. If a player does better than his historical counterpart, he wins; if he does worse, he loses. This makes even the catastrophe at Sedan into an interesting tactical challenge and a fun game. As Waterproof says, it's no walk in the park for the Germans, and the games don't feel one-sided at all. And the asymmetry of weaponry and of doctrine is always interesting.

Chris

Bloody Big BATTLES!
https://groups.io/g/bloodybigbattles
http://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/