Mechanics for Surprising Sentries, Guards, Pickets, etc. ?

[Pan Marek]

All the talk about AWI skirmish scenarios in the thread on Westchester's neutral ground got me thinking about one of my all time
wargame quandaries.   A number of potential raid scenarios require the raiders to "sneak up and overpower" sentries.   In "real life", the raiders were wildly successful in doing so, and accomplished their missions.   But such an outcome makes for a lousy wargame. 
You say:  don't choose those for a scenario.
I say: But I really want to do them, as they occurred on ground I know.  One example:  Meig's raid on Sag Harbor, L.I.
Historically, they silenced the sentries and took the garrison completely by surprise.

Any ideas on how to handle sentries being approached by raiders covered by darkness, mist or incredibly good "sneakiness"?
When does the sentry "spot" them, if at all?  A die roll?
How to make it so the garrison might get notice and thereby make a game of it?
Am I looking for an impossibility?

[Will Bailie]

You could take a look at Guy Bowers' Black Ops game:  https://ospreypublishing.com/black-ops

Black Ops has detailed rules for sneaking up to or past guards, setting up guard routines, things that can trigger guard tests and more.  It should be very straightforward to morph the system to the 18th Century, or just take the sneaky parts and add them to whatever skirmish rules you currently use.

[Pan Marek]

Will-
Thanks for the tip.  The Amazon reviews were quite positive, a couple even said basically what you said.  I already ordered it.

[Will Bailie]

Cheers, Pan Marek.  I've only tried Black Ops a couple of times - it can be fussy to keep track of multiple guards/sentries as each activates separately, and will take separate action.  Be prepared to isolate the sneaky parts of your larger scenario as almost a separate game:  1-2 scouts/assassins/whatever to silence 2-3 sentries, and then the larger forces (on both sides) only coming into the game if when the alarm is raised.  Basically a pre-game event to determine where the start points are for both raiders and defenders.

[Pan Marek]

Will-
Thanks for the heads up.  I might just mine the rules for ideas.  The lack of replies (except yours) seems to indicate that few have any idea how to handle such action in a scenario.  As I suspected.  I might try posting this on that "other site" to see if I get anything other than snark.  ;-)

[Baron von Wreckedoften]

Sorry, haven't been by here for a few days, so missed this.  Depending on how deeply you want to go into the subject, you can vary this aspect of the game from a straight up die-roll (with/without factors), to an actual low-level contest on a par with a Western gunfight.  The factors you would need to consider are:-

Attacker
- Quality of troops involved (can they keep quiet, will they start firing if surprised and give the game away, are they sufficiently "hard" to silence the sentries)
- Knowledge of the area (two aspects - the lie of the land and whether that knowledge is general within the unit, or specific to one person [a guide - but bear in mind, these can also get lost!])
- Confidence (have these troops undertaken a mission like this before)

Defender
- Quality of troops involved (as above, but more specifically are they reliable, will they obey any instructions they have been given, will they patrol efficiently, will they panic if surprised, are they prepared to "sell themselves" in order to protect their main body)
- Knowledge of the area (have the sentries been well placed, is there dead ground nearby that can allow attackers to get close, is there a place to retreat to and hold out)
- Confidence (in essence, do they know what they are doing, but more specifically have these troops been surprised in the past - if so, they may be jittery; alternatively, if they have "cried wolf" too often, they may be ignored if they give (yet) another alarm)

Hope that helps - be interested in what you get from "the other site" (another "banned Brit").

[Mindenbrush]

Wargaming with Silver Whistle did a WW2 Commando raid scenario and used die rolls to work out sighting/surprise.
Check his blog by searching Commando or look for December 2015 in the Bog Archives.

[Pan Marek]

Thanks for the ideas.

Baron-
I did post at "the other site", and got some very good replies.  I was surprised.  Its like
the people you never see anymore have been thirsting to have a discussion about.......wargaming!

Can you access it in your "banned" state?  If not, I'll copy and post the replies here.  They're
pretty good.

[fastolfrus]

A few extra imponderables.
Is it a moonless night?
Do the sentries have lanterns (beam of light possibly use a flamethrower template) or something like a brazier? (circle of light all round).

If it's really dark, possibly move the attacking scouts with an element of random direction. If it's dark and the sentries don't have light near them perhaps roll 2d6, one as +ve one -ve, after you have moved. If the 2d6 are different move the scout left (-ve) or right (+ve) by that many inches. If the sentries are lit up you can either halve the deviation or allow a re-roll, until you get within 12" of the lit up sentry, then move without deviation.
If the deviation takes you through difficult terrain of any sort (water, undergrowth etc.) make a roll to see if you make a noise (that might alert the sentry)

[Baron von Wreckedoften]

PM - I can still access the threads, just not post.  But I've read them and they are that good, so feel free to post them here as well.  (And yes, it surprised me, too, that you got such good answers!)

One thing that I forgot to put in my summation was the presence of civilians, who can give the game away (regardless of who they support) via barking dogs/honking geese, restless livestock, etc etc.

The other thing is whether you want to incorporate "crying wolf" into the mix.  It's all very well saying that on die roll X everyone does Y; but what if the sentries have been particularly spooked lately and the defenders are sick and tired of being rousted from their sleep every night?  Do they ignore the warnings this time?

[armchairgeneral]

Sorry if I am missing something, but what is “the other site” being referred to.

[v_lazy_dragon]

Sorry if I am missing something, but what is “the other site” being referred to.

I am presuming The Miniatures Page?

[Pan Marek]

LazyDragon-  Yep.  None other. 
Baron- Here you go:

Pan Marek   09 Sep 2020 9:03 a.m. PST
I've been looking to create AWI scenarios from a number of raids that relied on surprising and overpowering sentries.
In "real life", the raiders were wildly successful in doing so, and accomplished their missions. But such an outcome makes for a lousy wargame.
You say: don't choose those for a scenario.
I say: But I really want to do them, as they occurred on ground I know. One example: Meig's raid on Sag Harbor, L.I.

Any ideas on how to handle sentries being approached by raiders covered by darkness, mist or incredibly good "sneakiness"?
When does the sentry "spot" them, if at all? A die roll?
How to make it so the garrison might get notice and thereby make a game of it?
Am I looking for an impossibility?

Stryderg   09 Sep 2020 9:21 a.m. PST
Any type of challenge test should work.
Defender rolls X dice based on how alert he is.
Attacker rolls Y dice based on how skillful he is.
Bonus dice for fog (harder to hear, reduced vision), negative dice for dry vegetation (harder to be quiet).

Add up the dice for each side:
Defender rolls 2x the attacker: aware, alerts the guard and attacks first
Defender rolls higher: aware, does not alert the guard and melee as normal
Attacker rolls higher: gets 1 free attack then melee as normal, chance each round to alert the guard
Attacker rolls 2x higher: Defender is removed from play, no chance to alert the guard

=================
Or a simple roll off between the two then a "What happened" random event type roll:
Defender won, roll 1d6: 1-2 = alerts the guard, 3-4 = rushes in to attack first, 5-6 = alerts guard and rushes to attack first
Attacker won, roll 1d6: 1-2 = defender killed, 3-4 = defender captured, 5-6 = defender killed and hidden (no chance of discovery later in the game)

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP   09 Sep 2020 9:24 a.m. PST
Look at Eutaw Springs. A British foraging party was captured by the advancing Patriot. They were neither armed, nor supported.

I think it's the wrong approach to "guarantee" surprise. It's assuming your opponent is going to play dumb.
In the case of ES, make up an arbitrary number from 1-100 that reflects your opinion of Greene's intelligence gathering, scouting, etc.
The "Greene" player can evaluate the position, and decide if he wants to rush the position, risking disorder, or sneak up.
Whatever.
Then roll a D100 to see if the foragers are prepared or not.
Just a guess.

But try not to guarantee that the side caught flat footed will make the same mistakes. I can make my own, thank you very much. grin

Pan Marek   09 Sep 2020 12:35 p.m. PST
Stry & John-
Thanks. Food for thought and good ideas.

John- Exactly. I don't want "guaranteed" surprise. Who wants to play the defender in that game?

(although I'd hate to see Meigs get slaughtered)

Bill N   09 Sep 2020 12:43 p.m. PST
If you don't mind a system where the attacker is approaching on paper rather than on the board, and you have an umpire it is not hard to do.

The defender sets up his sentries. Each turn the attacker moves. The defender then gets to roll to see how many of his sentries are watching. For each one that is the defender then gets to designate a direction the sentry is looking. If the path crosses the attacker's path for the turn the umpire notes it. After all sentries have finished the umpire then rolls to determine whether the sentry successfully sounds the alarm. If successful the attackers forces are then placed on the board.

The attacking player could also elect to silence sentries. This would also be done off board with the umpire rolling to see if it is successful. One option for the outcome would be that the sentry was taken out but was able to give the alarm. If a sentry was silenced the defender is not notified unless/until the officer of the guard approached the sentry post or ran across the attackers.

If no alarm is given then when the attackers troops reach a certain point his figures are placed on the board. It then becomes a scramble to see whether the defender can organize his troops before they are overwhelmed.

If you want to add to the complexity allow the defenders to have a sentry post not represented by a figure on the board and allow the attackers to have "covered ways" where they won't be spotted even if the defending sentry looks in the right direction as the attacker approaches.

Pan Marek   09 Sep 2020 1:13 p.m. PST
Bill-
More good ideas!
With map movement, one gets "real" surprise.
Defender initially has no idea where attacker is.

With my games, based on obscure skirmish actions, its unlikely the players will know the historical events in advance.

Stryderg   09 Sep 2020 2:11 p.m. PST
Heh. For Bill's ideas, when a defending sentry is silenced, don't remove him from the board, let the player think he's still there. Remove that sentry when the alarm is raised…Surprise!

Dennis   09 Sep 2020 3:06 p.m. PST
If you want to have some player input into sentry alertness as well as some sort of die roll for the sentry spotting the attackers, give the defending player a limited number of chits that he can spend on increasing sentry alertness. If the player uses them for that purpose, then reduce his effectiveness in other matters-the OOD is so busy making sure the sentries are alert that he neglects other duties-maybe a chance of a delay in turning out the rest of the guard force in case of an alarm.

Oberlindes Sol LIC Supporting Member of TMP   09 Sep 2020 9:41 p.m. PST
You can add yet another level by having
-civilian units (controlled by the referee),
-friendly units (like from a neighboring unit, not in your chain of command, controlled by the referee),
-false units (i.e., a hostile unit pretending to be civilian or friendly), and
-more granular (flowcharted) sentry spotting effects.

For example, the sentry spotting effects could be something like this:

1. Looks like nothing is in the sentry's sector.

Result: Any unit actually there is not spotted and can move using hidden movement.

2. Something is in the sentry's sector, but the sentry can't identify it.

Result: Sentry makes a morale/reaction check. This could result in: running away; sounding the alarm; freezing for the rest of the turn; engaging the oncoming unit; or doing what a sentry normally does, shouting the challenge: "Halt! Who goes there?"

Response to challenge: Any unit may respond correctly or incorrectly to the challenge, but of course a friendly unit is more likely to respond correctly than a hostile unit, and civilian units are wild card. Did the civil affairs officer tell the locals how not to get shot by accident? Work that out beforehand, maybe with a reaction table.

Sentry's response to incorrect or no response to challenge: morale/reaction check.

Of course, there may not actually be a unit there, and the sentry is just challenging a moose that stepped on a branch. That's probably going to lead to your entire command mobilizing to neutralize the moose threat.

(Hey, don't make fun of the moose threat. I once saw a tour bus in Finnish Lapland that a moose had wrecked by letting the bus hit it. The moose was kind of banged up, too, but the bus was a complete write-off.)

The situations where the sentry spots a unit and identifies it (correctly or not) are left as an exercise for the reader:

3. The sentry spots and identifies (correctly or not) a unit as a civilian unit.

4. The sentry spots and identifies (correctly or not) a unit as a friendly unit.

5. The sentry spots and identifies (correctly or not) a unit as a hostile unit.

Note that in every case, the sentry might be wrong. There might not be a unit there at all, or the unit might actually be something else, such as a false unit, i.e, a hostile unit posing as civilians or friendlies, or even a friendly unit mistaken for enemy. What happens then should be worked out in advance on a reaction table. ("Oh, blast, I rolled a 1 and the sentry thought the wagon was full of rebels and bayoneted two sheep and a keg of ale.")

The intruder force might send a single soldier in civilian clothes ahead of the main force to distract or eliminate the sentry, especially if it knows the correct civilian response to the challenge of the evening.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP   10 Sep 2020 4:21 a.m. PST
The second post here:

TMP link

Gives a way to distribute forces that sneak up on each other. It consolidates a bunch of drudgery into the important bit – where are forces when they start to find each other, and subsumes a lot of decisions that would be poisoned by God's Eye View knowledge.

Pan Marek   10 Sep 2020 7:12 a.m. PST
Thanks all!

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Pan Marek   
11 Sep 2020 8:17 a.m. PST