Mahdist War Nile Column - What Shades of Grey & Khaki?

[Onebigriver]

Hi all,

I'm painting a Nile Column army in 15mm for Hordes of the Empire and I'm looking for advice on what shade of grey is suitable for the British forces, preferably as a Vallejo paint? The Perry's guide shows quite a plain lightish grey, but a lot of miniatures I've seen on t'internet seem to use a darker blue grey.

Also wondering about an appropriate shade of Khaki for this time period?

Cheers.

[Atheling]

If you're talking the Nile campaign and the Suakin Expedition then mainly a blue grey. For later such as Omdurman etc then you're talking a sandy khaki.

I've used the Wargames Foundry Triad, British Gun Grey which i borrowed from Mark Hargreaves and his excellent book, Painting 28mm Wargames Figures, The Mahdist Wars 1881-1885.

I appreciate that you will probably be looking for a larger gap in tone for 15 mil but it might be a good starting point all the same.

[Plynkes]

Not sure I agree with you there, Atheling. The Camel Corps had  what you might call blue-grey tunics, the grey uniforms that other units wore, were, to my eyes at least, light grey without a hint of blue in it. But that might just be my eyes. I was bewildered to discover the other day that my brother thinks that the colour of ham is blue(!). So maybe my family aren't the best people to ask.

That is what I think you are referring to, Onebigriver, the Camel Corps regiments of the desert column had tunics that are often depicted as blue-grey (though not by the Perry twins in Mike Snook's book - they give them the same light grey everybody else had) and sand coloured corduroy breeches, the infantry regiments in grey wore the paler grey that you mention.  No idea about Vallejo, I'm afraid. Never even seen a pot, let alone used any.


Anyway, Earle's river column (if indeed that is the one we mean): The British regulars dressed in grey serge frocks and trousers, apart from the Highlanders who wore tartan trews. However, in action at Kirbekan both the Black Watch and the South Staffs (the only two of Earle's four regular battalions involved in the battle)  donned their scarlet undress frocks to fight in. The Black Watch wore their kilts too, but it is thought that the South Staffs retained their grey trousers.


As for the desert column (in case you meant them - they are the most famous force in the whole business after all), the Camel Corps were dressed as already described, while the Royal Sussex Regt. were in the all-grey uniform also already mentioned. The column was later joined by the Royal Irish Regt., who showed up in smart Indian khaki.

If you are interested in fighting the'Fuzzy Wuzzy' there are of course the forces of the two Suakin expeditions, which happily I also have some quite detailed uniform info on, but that falls a little outside the scope of 'Nile column.'

[Plynkes]

This may be helpful. A scene from the Battle of Tofrek 1885 from the Second Suakin expedition, showing both the grey serge and Indian khaki. I am given to understand that the artist, C.E. Fripp, actually accompanied the expedition, so you probably won't find a better source for the colours, though of course there is room for artistic licence or human error.




I am not confident enough on the 'grey or blue-grey?' question to argue about it one way or the other, perhaps you should decide. Note though, that those couple of guys on the right are wearing the khaki uniform but in their shirtsleeves, so the colour you see there is that of the famous greyback shirt, rather than the grey of the serge uniforms.

[Atheling]

Not sure I agree with you there, Atheling. The Camel Corps had  what you might call blue-grey tunics

True. I was thinking mainly of just the infantry as opposed to the Camel Corp.

But that might just be my eyes. I was bewildered to discover the other day that my brother thinks that the colour of ham is blue(!). So maybe my family aren't the best people to ask.

  That's really tickled me! (apologies). Maybe he's eating it a little past the sell by date? 

In answer to the original question, there's the Perry article which has a decent description but the uniform plates seem to have gone! 

Link here:
https://www.perry-miniatures.com/pages.php?page=sudan-uniform-guide

If you contact me Onebigriver I might still have the images saved which I can email to you assuming I have them ion this laptop (they might have been stored on one of my old steam powered machines)

[Onebigriver]

Thanks guys, as mentioned in OP I have the Perry article, but it veers to quite a pale grey. Googling found an old TMP thread and someone has gone with Vallejo pale grey blue, I have that paint and IMO it's too pale, and I'm thinking of ordering Vallejo pale blue grey as an alternative. I have Camel Corps, Royal Marines & infantry to paint, so might go with VGC sombre grey as a base coat with aforementioned paint as a highlight for most troops, with the odd stand of redcoats to break things up and intimidate the enemy!

Thinking of VMC desert yellow as "khaki", unless somenoe has an alternative?

Cheers.

[Plynkes]

Had a dive into some of my books to refresh my memory, and I haven't found anything  to suggest that the Camel Corps had a different grey to the infantry. It all came from the same source: The grey uniforms that Wolseley had ordered for the Egyptian campaign in 1882 which hadn't arrived in time to be used. So whatever type of grey you choose to go with I would make it the same for everybody rather than giving the camel boys a different grey to the infantry.

As for the marines, we have conflicting reports, putting them in both grey uniforms and their home service dark blue. So I guess you can pick whichever  you prefer there.


Atheling, regarding the colour of that ham, I said the exact same thing to my brother.

[Atheling]

Had a dive into some of my books to refresh my memory, and I haven't found anything  to suggest that the Camel Corps had a different grey to the infantry. It all came from the same source: The grey uniforms that Wolseley had ordered for the Egyptian campaign in 1882 which hadn't arrived in time to be used. So whatever type of grey you choose to go with I would make it the same for everybody rather than giving the camel boys a different grey to the infantry.

According to the Perry Article, which I have in front of me now, excepting for the khaki corduroy trousers the Camel Corp would have been similarly kitted out with that particular grey uniform.

As for the marines, we have conflicting reports, putting them in both grey uniforms and their home service dark blue. So I guess you can pick whichever  you prefer there.

As a quick aside, would the Marines in the Victoria's Little Wars be more suitable in the sennet hats? Or is it anyone's guess?

Atheling, regarding the colour of that ham, I said the exact same thing to my brother.

It's an odd fort of colour blindness if that's what it is

[Plynkes]

No reason at all to put marines in sennet hats, that was a Naval Brigade thing. The RMLI didn't wear navy gear, they wore infantry-style uniforms and foreign service helmets. The only confusion is to what colour their uniforms were at Suakin. Reports differ as to whether they were in the same grey as everyone else, or if they were in their more usual dark blue.


One difference other than the trousers was that the Camel Corps had regimental distinctions on their right upper arms, symbols and letters cut from red cloth. I once read somewhere that these were made by cutting up their scarlet frocks, but I do not know if that is true. Other than that, they were the same as the ones worn by the infantry.

[Atheling]

No reason at all to put marines in sennet hats, that was a Naval Brigade thing. The RMLI didn't wear navy gear, they wore infantry-style uniforms and foreign service helmets. The only confusion is to what colour their uniforms were at Suakin. Reports differ as to whether they were in the same grey as everyone else, or if they were in their more usual dark blue.

Ah, you live and you learn. I didn't know that

One difference other than the trousers was that the Camel Corps had regimental distinctions on their right upper arms, symbols and letters cut from red cloth. I once read somewhere that these were made by cutting up their scarlet frocks, but I do not know if that is true. Other than that, they were the same as the ones worn by the infantry.

There's a great section on the Camel Corp in Mark Hargreaves, Painting 28mm Figures, The Mahdist Wars 1881-1885 book Pages 49-60. I'm certain that the actual numbers of the insignia are mention in  Mike Snook's book 

[Jack Jones]

In answer to the original question, there's the Perry article which has a decent description but the uniform plates seem to have gone! 

Link here:
https://www.perry-miniatures.com/pages.php?page=sudan-uniform-guide

If you Control+click / Right+click on the image panel and open in a new window or tab the images appear. Direct links here:

1–13 https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/su/su_article_1_large.jpg

14–26 https://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/su/su_article_2_large.jpg

Cheers
JJ

[Onebigriver]

Thanks all. I might paint the Marines as I'm sure they'll end up fighting slightly earlier battles too. Reading "Blood Red Desert Sand" by Michael Balthorp at the moment. Excellent book.

[Atheling]

Thanks all. I might paint the Marines as I'm sure they'll end up fighting slightly earlier battles too. Reading "Blood Red Desert Sand" by Michael Balthorp at the moment. Excellent book.

You're welcome.

I would add, if there's one book that you ought to buy it's the following; Go Strong into the Desert, The Mahdist Uprising in Sudan 1881-85, Lt. Col. Mike Snook:

https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=2468

It's superb, especially in regard to the fine details

[Jack Jones]

I would add, if there's one book that you ought to buy it's the following; Go Strong into the Desert, The Mahdist Uprising in Sudan 1881-85, Lt. Col. Mike Snook:

https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=2468

It's superb, especially in regard to the fine details

Oh! Yes! This is an excellent volume, pretty much complete for a wargamer’s purposes.

If you are interested in going deeper, Snook’s Beyond The Reach Of Empire: Wolseley’s Failed Campaign to Save Gordon and Khartoum is what I would call a forensic examination of the of the relief effort. Just now I am into the logistics of establishing and supplying the Nile and desert columns … fascinating stuff.

Cheers
JJ

[Atheling]

Oh! Yes! This is an excellent volume, pretty much complete for a wargamer’s purposes.

If you are interested in going deeper, Snook’s Beyond The Reach Of Empire: Wolseley’s Failed Campaign to Save Gordon and Khartoum is what I would call a forensic examination of the of the relief effort. Just now I am into the logistics of establishing and supplying the Nile and desert columns … fascinating stuff.

Cheers
JJ

Agreed, Beyond The Reach Of Empire: Wolseley’s Failed Campaign to Save Gordon and Khartoum is excellent. I've read all of Mike Snook's books. They are just so evocative. You basically can't go wrong