Bolshevik Cavalry Flags

[Ignatieff]

Time to update my Bolshevik cavalry forces and equipe them with some flags.  Does anyone have any reliable sources for these, and in particular Red Cossack colours?

On another note, The League of Extraordinary Kreigspeilers has just finished (last weekend), its latest opus:  'End of Empires'.  Cracking six month e-mail campaign in the lead up to a typical 4 day lead bender! (plus 31 bottles of wine and 133 bottles of beer - I know, I had to sneak to the bottle bank!).

Unfortunately however, our usual master photographer was on holiday, so we dont have any super photos to share this time (booo!), though there may be a few of the snaps us amateurs took tunr out OK.  Happy to share briefs, etc if there is any interest.

Next stop, the lapping waters of the Indian Ocean on the East African Coast, for 'The Hunt for Red October', a tale of a red raiding pocket battle ship amidst the chaos of post WWI East Africa!

[Mark Plant]

There was no set pattern. Just use the same type of scheme as used by the infantry, but a bit smaller.

"Red Cossacks" is tricky, and I don't like the term. The Soviets had a strong dislike of Cossack privileges, and were not going to distinguish units by the basis of being Cossack. Of course a lot of their cavalry units had a strong Cossack membership, but the Red tried to dilute this as much as possible. So their flags would be no different. I suppose they might follow the traditional pattern and have that diamond shape with the unit number in it.

The Soviet units with too many Cossacks in tended to be their very worst units. Many defected to the enemy en masse: entire brigades sometimes. Why wargamers want these units baffles me slightly. They were still defecting in WWII for that matter.

[Ignatieff]

It's only wargaming mate!

[former user]

I don't get it either

what could be better to collect for the RCW wargamer if not cossacks?
with the appropriate uniforms you can use them for almost every fraction

and yes, of course they disliked the Bolsheviks or Soviets
they have a social structure of their own and don't like to be amalgamated into the communist culture diarrhoea
and apart from wargaming, what is bad about a strong traditional background that withstands the modern mainstream culture and society?

Putin is reinstating the Cossack units nowadys it seems - but I wouldn't trust him in their place

another totalitarian regime to abuse them for it's purpose

[Mark Plant]

Wargamers often ask how their "Red Cossacks" differ from other Soviet cavalry in uniforms or flags. They don't, because there was no thing as "Red Cossacks". Just some units with lots of Cossacks in them.

As to whether it matters, well that depends which side of the RCW/BoB debate you fall. I don't like units designated "Red Cossacks" to be higher morale or fighting ability than ordinary Soviet cavalry because I try, within the bounds of the game, to get relative merits right. Others prefer the BoB approach and have large amounts of fictional elements in their game and reality takes a back seat to colour. Neither method of gaming is better of course, just different.

But when a person asks for "reliable sources" for flags, I think it reasonable to assume they are seeking reliable sources and not something made up. "It's only wargaming mate" doesn't really help him.

I'm wrong about the Cossacks in the Red Army, show me how I am wrong. If I'm right, the issue is why does something accurate bother you in any way?

[former user]

again, I don't get it

who said you were wrong about the Cossacks in the red army?

there is nothing wrong with accuracy, if it can be maintained in wargaming terms (after all, we are not doing reenactment and even there nothing is 100% - here a joke from the scene: what is historically accurate? steal it from an excavation and put it on!)
no wargame can simulate everything 100% accurate - or you end up making your own miniatures, spending years to build up an army and a day for just one turn of the game

the trick is to choose a level of accuracy which is playable
and that is of course a matter of personal taste

[Ignatieff]

So, to get back to my original question, does anyone have any visuals on Bolshevik cavalry flags.  Please......

[Mark Plant]

You want pictures of actual flags? And only cavalry ones? They will be few and far between.

I can do historical Red Army flags, but not cavalry.
http://www.gauntletinternational.com/RCWflags.htm
http://www.vexillographia.ru/russia/index.htm

It is very hard to find flags where both sides are known, so even finding a photograph will usually only give half the story since the Reds did not have the same devices on both sides.

If you want generic bits suitable for constructing your own flags, then that's no problem. I can construct a flag pretty quickly once I have a few details of the unit.

[Ignatieff]

Thanks Mark.

[former user]

just out of curiosity

I do understand the use of flags in propaganda, and as a rallying point for infantry
but apart from colourful wargaming

wouldn't we expect that the most "modern" cavalry of history could find carrying the colours in combat a little bit cumbersome and useless?
I mean, are there any actual pictures showing fighting cavalry with flags?
though I must laugh at my own question, just imagining a 1918 photographer trying to get a picture of charging cavalry....

[Plynkes]

This is the nearest to it that I know of. It's a photo taken during battle by T.E. Lawrence of mounted troops in action (more blurry cavalry are charging in the background). Standard bearer thrown in for good measure. Sharifian capture of Aqaba, 1917.

[Mark Plant]

just out of curiosity

I do understand the use of flags in propaganda, and as a rallying point for infantry
but apart from colourful wargaming

wouldn't we expect that the most "modern" cavalry of history could find carrying the colours in combat a little bit cumbersome and useless?

I've pondered this, and I think there is some confusion between types of flags.

The ones we tend to see are big, colourful regimental flags. If carried in battle at all - and I suspect mostly much less pretty ones were - they were only to mark the location of HQs. Infantry HQs definitely had regimental flags, because I have seen ones captured in Poland. (There's a famous photo of some, plus some in the Warsaw military museum.) I imagine cavalry HQs were similar.

In the open countryside of much of Russia with no landmarks, finding people is a real issue. I do know that even artillery batteries used flags in the RCW for this reason. Recognising one side from the other was a problem too.

Smaller units - battalions and companies - had much smaller and simpler flags. There are some examples of them in the Russian museum website from the White coloured regiments, which seem to have been carried on rifles. An example from the Kornilovs is given in the Osprey on the Whites. I have seen a small captured Red infantry company flag and photos of similar ones carried by cavalry. I'm not sure if they were rallying points, to pass orders or so HQs could be located, but I'm sure they were carried by at least some companies and squadrons.

Lastly, I have seen written descriptions of Soviets carrying large red flags in the front line. I'm not sure whether for morale reasons or technical reasons. I've never seen written descriptions of Whites doing it, but that proves little.

I'd guess most White cavalry used the old Imperial system for telling individual squadrons apart. It's quite complicated and gives really boring flags, so I have never bothered mastering it.

So, as far as I can tell, yes, they carried flags into battle. The big, flash ones should probably be at the rear with regimental HQs. Smaller, or at least simpler, ones can be given to front line units.

(In practice, of course, while my HQs have big flags my units do too, to make them easier to see.)

[former user]

thank you for the picture!!! @plynkes


well, quoting flags in war museums is not the slightest proof for them being used in battle....
yes, of course it makes sense for infantry and artillery tu use flags
they are slow or stationary and need to be recognised or rally
cavalry relying on swift surprising attacks or sneaky approaches, in any way an elite force, would hardly need this, and it would reveal them....
I do not want to argue about theory - there are many acceptable opinions
Plynkes post was what I asked for -
is there evidence of flags used by RCW cavalry in actual combat?  not to mark HQ or to parade - as there is evidence for RCW infantry using flags in actual combat, for obvious reasons

[Leapsnbounds]

 I am still lwaiting for Brigade Games to come with Russian Cavalry for the RCW and WWI before I delve into the period.  I thought there was a lot of cavalry involved in the Russian Civil War?

[former user]

a huge lot
think about the cossack uprise in 1918 to start with

why BG cavalry?
CC too expensive/big/ not nice enough?