Bolshevik Cavalry Flags

[Altius]

I am still lwaiting for Brigade Games to come with Russian Cavalry for the RCW and WWI before I delve into the period.  I thought there was a lot of cavalry involved in the Russian Civil War?

I suggested that to Lon on his Yahoo group. I'd love to see some more cavalry.

But y'know, there's already a lot of cavalry out there. Mine is almost exclusively Copplestone, with one unit made up of Old Glory. The Copplestones are great with a lot of variety. Battle Honors makes some nice stuff too, although I have not seen their cavalry firsthand: http://oldglory15s.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=1_221_706_727&sort=3a

[Mark Plant]

well, quoting flags in war museums is not the slightest proof for them being used in battle....

<sigh> Of course it is, when they are enemy flags captured in battle.

yes, of course it makes sense for infantry and artillery tu use flags
they are slow or stationary and need to be recognised or rally

Actually there is a reference is from Sergei Mamontov, who fought in the horse artillery for his unit's flag. Not slow. No need to rally. He speaks of being able to look around and see which cavalry unit was which by virtue of the flags present. He talks about how that made the job of couriers much easier.

cavalry relying on swift surprising attacks or sneaky approaches, in any way an elite force, would hardly need this, and it would reveal them....

You can't really sneak up on someone with a division of cavalry, with massed tachankas.

It's not really how I see Denikin and Wrangel operating with cavalry. Budenny neither. They used them in mass, and were prepared to charge frontally if they had to. Flags were essential for manouevring large bodies.

I can see that a detached cavalry squadron might not need a flag, since it would only have itself to rally on. But a small flag is easily hidden. Just lower it when you don't want anyone to see it. The White cavalry mostly carried lances, so a flag didn't make them any more visible.

is there evidence of flags used by RCW cavalry in actual combat?  not to mark HQ or to parade - as there is evidence for RCW infantry using flags in actual combat, for obvious reasons

Why is marking HQs not "combat"? I'm serious. Cavalry commanders do not lead from the rear (not if they are any good). Even Army commanders like Budenny and Wrangel were at the front line. Regimental cavalry HQs would be in the thick of it. How would a messenger find a cavalry commander without some flag or other?

I think the reverse logic needs to be thought about. What did cavalry do with their flags when they reached combat. Discard them?

[former user]

good argument

so, I am getting an idea of how to imagine the RCW cavalry
seems to be the more traditional style

thanks for the quotation, that's what I called for

<sigh myself> displaying "captured" flags is propaganda
do you really believe the many war correspondant drawings of the 19th C showing cavalry fighting for a flag?
do you really think cavalrymen 1918 had nothing better to do amidst MG salvoes than fighting for a flag instead of crossing the open as fast as possible? this is not balaclava, and even that was stupid for that time
already the napoleonic infantry displayed only the pole of the flag in battle and not the cloth itself, because it was too valued

apart from the revolutionary era, where lots of flags were displayed for propaganda, the charging troops with waving flags are a myth in art and cinema of which we must get rid - of course flags look nice on the tabletop and help identify units, especially in 15 mm  but we like them because we saw them in art and cinema
wondering how many flagpoles must have broken on trotzky's train travelling with 75 km/h   

[Mark Plant]

Everything I have read suggests that the RCW was a reversion to a style of warfare reminiscent of how the Great War was meant to be. Yes, there were MGs and barbed wire, but cavalry still formed up and charged with lance and sabre. Infantry still advanced in lines (well, not always, but the poorer quality did).

My guess is that the Polish "captured" flags were picked up off the ground after the battle. I did not intend to suggest that they were actually captured from the hands of the Soviets. Merely that they had been carried close enough to the front line to be left behind.

As for carrying them in the front line - I'm absolutely certain the Soviets did it. Perhaps only until close to the enemy and not into any very close range, but they definitely advanced with them flying. There's too many written references. Generally I fall very much on the side of "realism" in my RCW gaming (not necessarily elsewhere mind) but I have not the slightest issue with flags in my units.

[former user]

must look very nice

and if there is written source, more the better if you like it accurate

no problem with flags, I intend to have some standardbearers myself

[tom_aargau]

I have found one picture of bolshevik cavalry carrying flags in my files.

It is from book published in Eastern Germany in the 1980's, the caption says "1st cavalry army before the counter offensive against the troops of intervention of bourgeois-imperialist Poland end of May 1920" (was thinking this might add a little atmosphere  )
 
The flag in  the front I guess is red with in yellow outlined star, hammer and sickle.

Think the variety of uniforms is interesting, particularly the fact a cossack in proper dress is wearing the red banner.

[former user]

wow!!!
what a fantastic picture!!!

and the diversity in dress

well, let's hope the picture is not mislabeled, because I can't recognise a bolshevik symbol  (maybe I'm blind)
but so far for the amalgamation of ethnicities in a uniformed red army
and that 1920 - give me a break!!!

thank you for the picture

[tom_aargau]

No problem, happy to help.

I tried to enlarge the flag, on the printed picture in the book the outline of a five pointed star can be better seen, and I believe the inner contour is a sickle.

The picture quality is not too good, my scanner has given up on me, and I had to use a handheld camera.

[tom_aargau]

A couple more pictures of what seems to be bolshevik cavalry.

The small flag on the lower picture seems to be a flag of a 63rd regiment (you can see the Cyrillic "Polka", i.e. the second case of polk = regiment). Unfortunately, it is not possible to read the top line of the flag.

Again, there is a lot of variety in dress.

[former user]

looklook
thank you very much

well, I guess all desires fulfilled Ignatieff
especially the third pic looks very authentic

so, there seem to be two kinds
bigger and smaller

[Mark Plant]

so, there seem to be two kinds
bigger and smaller

Yes, exactly what I said above.

Given that these are pretty much the three most famous pictures of the Konnarmiya, I had assumed you knew of them. I did not bring them up because they are all clearly HQ groups and are not in action. The first picture is perhaps the most famous photo of the RCW.

let's hope the picture is not mislabeled, because I can't recognise a bolshevik symbol

Two of the guys are wearing a Budenovka. The mixing of different style Cossack dress is a dead giveaway too. (Quite apart from the man in kaftan, the guy front right is wearing a Cossack burka and the guy front left is almost certainly a Don Cossack - note the nagaika whip).

All three photos are pretty typical of the Konnarmiya, who were notoriously shabby and composed largely of Cossacks.

I can do more photos of this sort.

[Leapsnbounds]

 I want to see if they will be compatible with the Cobblestn Figures.  I am looking for variety and compatabilty.  It worked well with the WWI East Arican Armies, I am hoping it will work well with the Russian Civil War though I am starting to see scale creep with the White Russians decidely bigger than the bolshevik fgures of Cobblestone.  I mount all my modern figures on fender washers so it does show.  Did you know that the two  gunned armed Brendan Frazier Cobblestone Armed Archealogist got me started in this period.

[Mark Plant]

Belorussian Partisans 1918

Flag in the distance

I suspect this is post war.

[former user]

OK, fine

(no, I am not a specialist on RCW, and I surely do not know all pictures  (-;)
so, let me number the pictures and discuss the authenticity
1- while showing a HQ, but not in combat it looks very authentic. the officers seem to be discussing some action - I read that the hat with 3 points had something to do with elte units (or comissars?)  ist that true and what is it called?

2- (the book cover) this is clearly a propaganda picture and as such ranks for me low in authenticity - "hey guys, you, you and you - you are looking cool! line up here and let me take a picture... ehmm, why don't you switch hats with that guy. oh yes, could you please shoulder your rifles? and maybe we can have that ammo belt too?"

3- though, not in combat, clearly in action and very authentic - maybe they are listening to an officer or comissar

4- same as above, at rest or in preparation for some action

5- propaganda picture

6- casual picture, very interesting cause it says something about tactical subunits. I see one small flag, can't say if in the front or rear unit - maybe someone sees better

7- more of the propaganda style, clearly a parade, so as neat as it gets, again very interesting for subunit size - I count seven subunits and a baggage train (or tachankas?), all in ranks of 2-3 - the guys in front look all very neat and have their sabres drawn  (not the others), only they carry a flag  - were there elite squadrons/troops ??
since almost all can be seen, my rough estimate would be some 200 in total, with the first two subunits counting fewer men - so a squadron?  2 troops with respectively 3-4 platoons??


and now we need someone to read the flags!
alexej witchheimerowich, would you please??

[Mark Plant]

A serious issue with trying to determine which pictures are real is that many date from movies made after the war.

#1 I'm pretty sure is genuine, just because the amount of coverage it got. It's on the cover of the official Soviet encyclopedia of the war. (I don't think the hat has three points: I think it has the sides folded up but not tied back, so pointing out.)

#2 is on the cover of the English version of Budenny's memoirs. However it does have a certain "stagey" feel to it.

#3 has a copy in Budenny's memoirs. Very odd mix of men: the guy standing appears to have a helmet on!

#5 is staged in terms of the photo, but the flag is not very flashy. I suspect it is real.

#7 I would guess is either post war or an elite unit. It is odd that the commander has a furashka when the men have Budennovkas. I included it more because of the different style of flag. It is the size of a typical RCW Soviet cavalry squadron (including tachankas).