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Author Topic: Frostgrave using D10s  (Read 4943 times)

Offline Darkson71

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2020, 06:29:54 PM »
So what is the point of all of those different types of minions then? Doesn't that seem to point to a flaw in the game?
What you see as a flaw was a deliberate design decision - a soldier worth 4 times is deliberately not 4 times as good, as the author has explained before.
Yes, one on one a knight is better than a thug, but not to the point where, as in some other games, that there is no point in actually making the combat rolls.

If this is a big issue for you then FG is perhaps not the game for you.  Personally I love it, as it means that, especially now with Thugs and Thieves being free to hire, no matter how badly you end up being mauled during a game, you're never completely without hope for the next one.
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Offline Malebolgia

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2020, 09:11:24 AM »
When I first played Frostgrave, I wasn't a fan of D20 because it felt swingy. But a year later we tried again and we both embraced the D20 as core element of the game. And we actually loved it. It led to so many epic outcomes and battles we would probably never had with a bell-curve 2D10 system. A Captain one-shotting a Ghoul king with his magical blade...the same Captain getting stabbed turn after turn by Cultist and dieing in the end, a Warhound tearing a Knight in two in a frenzied attack. That is Frostgrave and the D20 for me. Epic moments, stories you'll remember for life and laughter all around. And I think it helps if you're playing with children to build the story around the table (or even better: let them tell the narrative!).
It's not just two warbands striding onto the field, casting spells, battling, getting treasure and leaving. That's a bit dull. Try to add narrative and stories to each encounter. And with the swingy results this is easy to do and I think a lot of fun. Add the post game phase with treasures, new spells, etc. and it gets even more fun!
And the good thing about your soldiers dieing often (I think 1-2 models per scenario is average) is that you paint and field other models. Your Knight was killed by a Ghoul on the icy river? His brother, a Ranger will come to avenge him! It only sucks if a Wizard dies in a game...but that is VERY rare. A dead Apprentice can simply be replaced. So casualties aren't really an issue, especially in second edition where you can take Thugs and Thieves for free.

One thing I'd REALLY stay away from is min/maxing or powergaming. I think that really kills the game. So make sure you don't pick the strong damage spells and spells like Leap and just focus on winning the game. It's way cooler to have interesting spells like Blind, Mud, Imp, etc. too. Using more of those spells makes for a more interesting game than just blasting away at enemies from safety.
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Offline Historiker

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2020, 09:51:06 AM »
One thing I'd REALLY stay away from is min/maxing or powergaming. I think that really kills the game. So make sure you don't pick the strong damage spells and spells like Leap and just focus on winning the game. It's way cooler to have interesting spells like Blind, Mud, Imp, etc. too. Using more of those spells makes for a more interesting game than just blasting away at enemies from safety.

Although it does not have much of a connection to the topic of the thread (only a little, as the D20 obviously comes into this as well), I strongly concur with this. Although strategy and tactics surely do matter in Frostgrave it does not strike me as a game where these two are in the drivers seat. Or rather: A game in which being a brilliant planner leads to a fun game night.

I once played Frostgrave with a friend of mind who is absolutely new to wargaming but a talented engineer. I don't think it is job, more his personality which makes him a brutal minmaxer in games of all sorts and with narrative games this is just...not fun.

To bring it back to the topic: As the above statement shows, my issue with the D20 is not that it is swingy (as is the issue of the author of the thread, I assume) but that the Frostgrave-ruleset tends to make miniatures / characters feel very same-y and lacking character.

This can to a certain degree remedied by player input and storytelling but the players really have to show some willingness for it to work. Given that, there certainly are many possibilities for memorable moments.

PS: A downside of games with lots of in-depth customization is that they take a longer time to get started and are, in general, harder to teach to newcomers. As some have already said, what some may see as "flaws" in most cases likely is to be a conscious game design choice. Some may like it, some may not, but that is the case with all games  :)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2020, 09:53:58 AM by Historiker »
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Offline Malebolgia

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2020, 10:10:57 AM »
To bring it back to the topic: As the above statement shows, my issue with the D20 is not that it is swingy (as is the issue of the author of the thread, I assume) but that the Frostgrave-ruleset tends to make miniatures / characters feel very same-y and lacking character.

Disagree with you on this one. Generally a Ranger and a Templar play way different in the game. That's logical with their big difference in gear. But even the cheap (or free) Thief, Thug and Warhound feel very different in how they play in the game.

Offline Historiker

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2020, 12:48:55 PM »
Ah, you're right of course! I should have been more specific:

Within the general class they are in "melee fighter", "ranged fighter", "treasure grabber" or "annoyingly binding people or supporting in combat role doggies" the soldiers at least to me feel not that different. Ranger / Archer / Sharpshooter and the like. They are a dude with a bow.

Another point I meant to make was that "my ranger" will most likely feel quite same-y to "your ranger" which is a natural outcome of most of the warband being expendables.

To change that would make Frostgrave an entirely different game and therefore also at this point I would say: It's a conscious game design decision. I like my lads and ladies to have more individuality, but then there is the path of houseruling, Rangers of Shadow Deep or other games :)

Offline Malebolgia

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2020, 01:09:45 PM »
Ah I understand. And I agree, Rangers of Shadow Deep is better if you want them to be more personalized and individual. I think the current setup is good for Frostgrave, with 10-12 models it can get a lot to remember otherwise.

Offline Darkson71

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2020, 05:44:16 PM »
That is part of the appeal for me though - I know the stats of your and my soldiers (item not withstanding) without constantly having to ask.
When I play(ed) Mordheim (which I love) we would constantly have to check on the roster sheets, as even within the same warband soldier A could be very different from soldier  B, despite them being the same type

But again, that comes down to games scratching different itches .

Offline Historiker

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2020, 11:05:53 PM »
Yes, I agree. Frostgrave in my opinion pretty much delivers exactly what it sets out to do which probably explains why it is so successful. In my opinion it was the success of Frostgrave which made a lot of the later hardcover books by Osprey even possible (economically).

Offline snitcythedog

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2020, 11:23:08 PM »
Going back to Historikers comments about the samey feel for the troop types.  Quite a bit of that comes down to how you play.  I generally run a pack of thieves.  Not just becasue they are faster to and with treasure but I regularly have them join in combats together to defeat larger or harder targets.  This allows me to scatter the warband and bring it together again at crucial moments.   
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Offline Historiker

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Re: Frostgrave using D10s
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2020, 11:36:46 PM »
That is not only mechanically clever but also quite atmospheric! It's a strength of the system to be so flexible that it allows stuff like this without becoming extremely unbalanced.

I would still argue though that there is a difference between these characterful situations emerging from the rules and rules specifically creating characters like "This is Bilbo Kent - he is a halfling thief who is good with all plantlike beings and shoots lasers from his eyes".

But at least on my part this is not an issue, as has being said there are multiple games for multiple purposes / tastes. I feel a bit bad about having contributed to derailing this thread a bit...

Still, the D20 / D10 issue is also tied to the stats of the warbands as a D20 tends to have a leveling effect (even when there is armor and health). I just don't see how one could easily switch Frostgrave to a pure D10 system. I don't think it is possible?

Anyone having had success here?

Please don't feel like I want to cut any fruitful discussion short, it's just that I worry that people clicking on this want to read more about D10s  lol

 

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