Adapting Donnybrook for sci-fi?

[Hobgoblin]

Has anyone given this a go?

Donnybrook strikes me as an excellent basis for a sci-fi skirmish game. I really like the card-based activation system (especially the dither-free "this unit goes now!" aspect to it), and the speed and simplicity of shooting and combat seems well suited to the genre.

In particular, it seems well suited to a game in which primitives (orkoids, reptilians, whatever) take on higher-tech foes.

But how to represent that higher technology?

I reckon one easy adaptation would be to make ranges for high-tech weapons infinite - which puts an emphasis on cover and line of sight.

Another would be to use multiple shooting dice per figure. So a space marine shooting a bolter would roll two or three d10s to hit. Planetary militia with automatic weapons might roll two D6 per figure.

Armour's easy - high-tech armour gives a save against missile fire (unlike in the conventional game).

Heavy weapons could use templates (rolling to hit everyone under on two or three dice) or could attempt to hit everyone in a target unit, depending on type. Although most high-tech weapons wouldn't need the reload card, some heavy weapons might. Flamers would have a short range.

Hand-to-hand weapons mostly take care of themselves: we can assume that powerswords function as long swords and power axes as halberds, etc. The fact that most combatants will be armed with knives gives the right sort of differential.

All in all, I think Donnybrook's high lethality and speed of play would be a great fit for a game with several small units per side - and especially one with multiple players.

Any thoughts or experience of doing something similar?

[swiftnick]

I think there is a sci-fi donnybrook game on the give them lead blog. Will see if I can find it.

[NurgleHH]

I think DB is good for historical. For SciFi I would take a look on Galactic Heroes from Wiley Games. Card driven as DB, but better tested for SciFi.

[v_lazy_dragon]

Short answer is yes, it should work.
Even just swapping the need to reload should change the dynamics. Bigger critters should be catered for by some of the discussions relating to Donnybrook: Dark on facebook (let me know if you want me to type them out - there were stats for ogres and I got some suggestions on how to do various dinosaurs).
More lethal weapons should be covered by using the modifier for vicious weapons vs characters (can't remember what the specific weapon trait is!)

For auto weapons I would make the unit reduced size (i.e. use cavalry unit sizes), 2 dice per model, but one the roll of a 1* they will need to reload (standard mechanic of waiting for a reload card). Give them an option to burn the clip, where they get a die shift down in exchange for an extra attack dice. I.e. Regulars could roll 2x D8 or 3xD6. Greater chances of rolling a 1 and needing to reload.

*Or maybe roll more 1's than figures in the unit?

[Hobgoblin]

Thanks, both!

NurgleHH - I like Galactic Heroes, and we've played it lot, but I prefer Donnybrook's card system for a couple of reasons specific to the sort of games I want to run.

The first is the way activations work. I think FFoL/GH works brilliantly when everyone is fully focused, ready to play their cards as soon as they come up. But our experience has been that in a big group with several kids playing, people often forget that they have a certain card - which leads to lots of "Oh, wait..." moments. To get full value from FFoL, I reckon people need to be sitting round the table like poker players - perfectly suited to the Wild West setting of the original game.

By contrast, Donnybrook has specific units activate when their cards are drawn - which makes it that bit quicker. Of course, there is less decision-making in this system. But our initial experience has been that it plays a lot faster than FFoL - and for a game with many players, all those time savings add up.

The other thing that I'm not so keen on in FFoL is the use of tokens. I do like keeping clutter to a minimum on the table - and especially in unit-based games, where there's more risk of the tokens getting muddled up.

All of that sounds a bit harsh on FFoL, which I don't mean to be at all: I really like the game, of which I have several iterations, and I must pick up the new fantasy version soon.

The real positive for Donnybrook, I think, is speed of play. I like the fact that shooting and combat are generally one roll per model, and I like the high lethality, which seems particularly well suited to sci-fi.

I was thinking a bit more about the adaptations I proposed above. I reckon most high-tech guns (bolters, lasguns, whatever) will allow two dice per figure when shooting, with some heavier weapons (e.g. storm bolters) allowing three. The simplest way to adjust the points cost for such figures is just to double them. So, for example, you get two space marines (d10, double shooting, armour save against missiles) per point rather than four.

That means that high-tech troops will come in sixes, fours and pairs per point, which seems fair enough given both the longer range, the lack of reloading and the extra firepower. Units can be of any size, of course, as in the standard rules. So 10 space marines would be five points, and so on.

[Hobgoblin]

Short answer is yes, it should work.
Even just swapping the need to reload should change the dynamics. Bigger critters should be catered for by some of the discussions relating to Donnybrook: Dark on facebook (let me know if you want me to type them out - there were stats for ogres and I got some suggestions on how to do various dinosaurs).
More lethal weapons should be covered by using the modifier for vicious weapons vs characters (can't remember what the specific weapon trait is!)

I'd love to see those if you can cut and paste them - but I don't want to put you to any trouble!

For auto weapons I would make the unit reduced size (i.e. use cavalry unit sizes), 2 dice per model, but one the roll of a 1* they will need to reload (standard mechanic of waiting for a reload card). Give them an option to burn the clip, where they get a die shift down in exchange for an extra attack dice. I.e. Regulars could roll 2x D8 or 3xD6. Greater chances of rolling a 1 and needing to reload.

*Or maybe roll more 1's than figures in the unit?

Those are great ideas - many thanks! And yes, that'll keep the reload card a lot more relevant!

[Hobgoblin]

More lethal weapons should be covered by using the modifier for vicious weapons vs characters (can't remember what the specific weapon trait is!)

And yes - that's my thinking. I'd treat power axes, etc., as "great weapons", which have that trait.

I think there's also space to stack some weapon traits. So a power sword or lightsaber might count as "great weapon" (deadlier to characters) and long sword (offering a bonus to attack and a parry). And it might even grant a 6 on a D6 parry against missiles, for the full Jedi effect.

I envisage playing some Gamorrean-type primitive orks with two-handed axes; those can stay as "great weapons" - on the assumption that the primitives have plenty of muscle to put behind the swing!

[v_lazy_dragon]

I like the idea of 1/2 numbers for auto weapons, and the idea about stacking weapon stats.

The various Donnybrook Dark  bits I have collected are:

Dryad (d8)
Charm: A dryad may attempt to charm a target within 6 inches. Both roll an Ability Die. If the dryad's score is higher, the target acts under control of the dryad for the rest of the game. If the score is a tie, the dryad controls the target for one turn. If the victim's score is higher, that model is immune to the dryad's charms for the rest of the game. A dryad may only control one victim at a time.
Tree-Stride: A dryad that starts it's turn within 3 inches of a tree or wood may move to within 3 inches of any other tree within line of sight instead of making a normal move.
Fey Blade: A dryad may manifest an enchanted blade which is an anathema to the unquiet spirits of Rusland, allowing them to sever the tenuous energy that binds the undead to this plane. These may be actual swords or knives or may take the form of hooked claws as the dryad prefers. They are as deadly as normal blades would be against mortal foes as well.
Options: Lesser dryads or wood sprites (d6) lack the Fey Blade ability but are often encountered in small groups. The dreaded treekin (d10) replace the Charm ability with Terror which causes all mortal enemies within 12 inches and line of sight to test morale.


 Dragon, d20, two force points, causes fear (test to charge or if charged), fire breathing (or whatever) range 12", d6 hits, rolls on wound chart like characters (with a d20)... if you're really feeling nasty give it flight with a speed of 18"

Ogre... d12, Cause Fear (as a Ghoul from the Cultist list), Brute (d12 only applies to close combat and strength-related checks... use d6 for other checks), Tough (use wound chart as a character).


Try a T-Rex as a d20 monster… cause terror (must test Morale if charged or attempting to charge), it gets saves as a character. It likely must be wounded (reduced to d12) to actually kill it. In close combat it can attack every model within base contact. It may move through enemy models, simply pushing them out of the way.
Velociraptors might be d12 and move like cavalry.
Triceratops d20, move 6”, armor save 3+ from the front.
And weapon rules that might help for heavy weapons:
For something like an Amussette I guess it depends if you see it as ultra light artillery or a heavy musket.
A heavy musket might be Range 30(36?)", Move or Fire, Vicious, Misfire. Can be reloaded with scatter shot (Range 10", burst, misfire, move or fire). Move like pike in rough terrain.
Alternatively go the artillery rules route, and change the die for the number of hits caused in a unit. Say d6 for a swivel gun and d4 for an amussette or wall gun. Maybe drop the range to 30" (more than a musket, less than true artillery- or even us 36" and push the artillery out to 48"). Sayonly 2 crew required to reload an amussette and 3 for a swivel gun. Possibly adjust the movement too.

[Hobgoblin]

Aha - many thanks! That's excellent - and those ogre rules should take care of various large alien brutes. Those dinosaur rules look very handy too.

There's lots of scope to work with the brute rule for nasty xenomorph and genestealer types - d6 but d10 in combat, etc.

[NurgleHH]

@Hobgoblin: You mention some points I must rethink. I will try a game with both rulesets, but in the moment I have less time. I have to read DB again, last game is over 2 years ago. I never had this problems you were talking about with the cards, so it is good for me to take care in the next games about this. I always had the feeling, that GH is the fastest game, but only a subjectiv view.

[Cat]

I enjoy Donnybrook a lot for French Indian Wars games set in Sleepy Hollow.  Last century, I also did some homebrew sci-fi skirmish gaming with specific unit activation cards.  I think the two should blend together just fine.
 
For sci-fi skirmishing, infinite shooting ranges and lots of cover on the table worked great.
 
I agree that unit specific activation cards keep the games flowing faster.  But for a little finesse in a sci-fi setting, I like to give each side a little bit of communications command and control options.

Each side gets 4 command points to use each game turn.  When a card comes up, that commander can spend 1 point to put it back on the bottom of the deck if they want to hold off its activation.  If not, then the opposing commander has the option to spend 2 points to put it back on the bottom of the deck (jamming).  In practice, this level of decision making did not lead to dithering as the players usually have a pretty clear idea of what unit they do not want to see activating immediately.  (N.b. this would not work if you use Donnybrook's 'reshuffle the deck' cards.)

[NurgleHH]

I remebered a discussion in the league of Augsburg-Forum about DB and 40K: http://www.leagueofaugsburg.com/fightingtalk/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=6940
Maybe this will help you

[Hobgoblin]

I remebered a discussion in the league of Augsburg-Forum about DB and 40K: http://www.leagueofaugsburg.com/fightingtalk/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=6940
Maybe this will help you

Brilliant! Many thanks - that link is gold!

For sci-fi skirmishing, infinite shooting ranges and lots of cover on the table worked great.

Good to know! Thanks!
 

I agree that unit specific activation cards keep the games flowing faster.  But for a little finesse in a sci-fi setting, I like to give each side a little bit of communications command and control options.

Each side gets 4 command points to use each game turn.  When a card comes up, that commander can spend 1 point to put it back on the bottom of the deck if they want to hold off its activation.  If not, then the opposing commander has the option to spend 2 points to put it back on the bottom of the deck (jamming).  In practice, this level of decision making did not lead to dithering as the players usually have a pretty clear idea of what unit they do not want to see activating immediately.  (N.b. this would not work if you use Donnybrook's 'reshuffle the deck' cards.)

That's a really clever idea. We might introduce it later after an initial game or two. Food for thought!

[Ragsta]

Here’s a blog I enjoy that used Donnybrook for 40K - that universe may not be to your taste but the mechanics detailed might be of use!

https://govgensectorsix.blogspot.com/2017/01/trying-donnybook-for-40k.html?m=1

The writer is also a really fun creator in general, so that’s a bonus

Ragsta