The project black hole beckons.... Operation Herkules Panzer 2J and Panzer 1F

[Rich H]

So I'm being dragged into another project black hole having not quite finished the last obviously...

Op Herkules - the Axis invasion of Malta

German KV-1s and KV-2s, T-34s, Panzer 4s, Panzer 3s, Panzer 2J and Panzer 1F plus some Italian stuff.

The bit that really interests me is the Panzer 2J and Panzer 1F:
These 'recon tanks' had 80mm of frontal armour, they were very tough little beasts but pathetically armed with MGs and/or 2cm Autocannons
As you can see they are completely new vehicles when compared to Panzer 1s and 2s.
I figure they would be good for clearing the tight streets of villages and towns in Malta where the main opposition would be Vickers light tanks, Cruiser 1s and 2s and the odd Matilda - 80mm of armour would shrug off most 2pdr hits but the 20mm would not do much to a Tilly.  The lights adn cruisers on the other hand would be in trouble!

[Wyrmalla]

In the real world didn't these wind up being turned into recovery vehicles? Which may go to show effective they were in the field as you say. I suppose the armour would justify that role - but I can't imagine that their weight to power ratio was that amazing either.

Its interesting that the overall designs are more in line with older prototypes for German heavy tanks. Somehow the designs must have worked better for these smaller vehicles (or there was no development oversight that late in the war). Specifically those side hatches which require the mudguards to be lifted up to access.

I do wonder why they thought machine guns on a heavily armoured recce vehicle would be viable. Probably again a lack of oversight. Sure they may have been intended to fight only soft skinned vehicles, and the armour was there to allow the vehicles to escape any meaningful fight. But realistically they aught to have understood that the enemy wasn't using soft skins for reconnaissance any more.

20mm guns I suppose suited what other scout vehicles were armed with at the time, so would have helped with logistics. Though already before the war the Soviets were sticking 45mm guns on their armoured cars. Perhaps a 30mm autocannon would have worked out better?

Of course there was designs for recce vehicles with long 75mm guns - which went nowhere. And the Germans did build a 38(t) based vehicle with a short 75mm. That could have fended off light tanks I imagine.

[Rich H]

I didn't say it was a good plan
They didn't build many. The 1Fs did see some action don't know about the 2Js. 

I'll check on engines.

[Rich H]

1F 6hp/ton (100hp/16 tons)
2J 8hp/ton (150hp/18 tons)

For comparison (wiki figures)
1 11hp/ton
2 16hp/ton
3 12hp/ton
4 12hp/ton
5 14hp/ton

Churchill 9hp/ton

Suffice to say, while not geared particularly slowly (25km/h), they were severely underpowered. 

I'd suggest for my purposes (bolt action) they will be slow in broken ground (6") bit normal speed in open ground (9")

[Rich H]

By my reckoning they fit in with the older infantry tanks not recce.  Much like the matilda 1 - a mobile strong point to support an infantry attack. Twin MGs is a lot of firepower and the 2cm can deal with light tanks and infantry.   Under sustained 2cm fire things like bunker embrasures are vulnerable.

 Pretty useless for recce, too slow and I suspect combat range is pretty short too!

[Wyrmalla]

Its not for me to understand what their thinking was behind these vehicles. Particularly why they'd build them at all when existing chassis could have fulfilled the same role - or at least been pressed into it. But that's the sort of thinking which was endemic to Nazi Germany in wartime, and they may have built those things just because they could.

Besides criticising the concept of these vehicles, they're still interesting. And a good choice for models. I don't play Bolt Action, though that rules system seems obsessed with Machine Guns, so maybe the Panzer I could be viable there. ...Or not.

I have a Panzer I C being painted at the moment. Rather than a mini Tiger that thing's like a smaller Luchs. With its anti-tank rifle main gun I'm wondering if it'd be slightly more viable as a combat vehicle for fighting enemy recce units. I do wonder why they didn't just fit 20mm guns in these light tanks. The Spanish certainly were able to up-arm their Panzer I that way.

[Rich H]

Bolt action is weird in that respect (and.many others).  Tripod.MGs are terrible value but vehicle MGs are great value. 
They have not really tried to address that problem

[Rich H]

Made a start.  Nice flat plates mostly so pretty quick.  No 2Js survive so its wartime photos only as reference for details.  The drawings seem OK though.

[tomrommel1]

Nice start

[Eclaireur]

Another great looking project that we will follow with interest. You prompted me to look up the operation. I can see these up armoured Pz Is and IIs might have been quite handy on the little island roads. But KV 1 and 2s ?!! the mind boggles 
EC

[Wyrmalla]

Have you been able to make a library of common parts between your German vehicles - or were the real things similar, but different enough that this wouldn't be viable? Specifically I'm looking at the roadwheels and thinking they could be rescaled for other vehicles. However the actual process of sculpting one of these might make copy/ pasting pointless. I frankly have no idea.

[Rich H]

There isn't much commonality, I've a few bits that transfer like headlamps and tools sometimes. 

But most parts are easier to redraw.

[Rich H]

Fiddly bits take so much time...  probably 75% completed by time.

Transmission, suspension and tools to go I think...

I'm hoping that the tracks and suspension are the same on the Panzer 1 ausf F too as that will save a lot of time!

[Rich H]

bolt action stats wise I'm a bit torn.... the armour ratings in Bolt Action only have a passing logic.

Frontal armour is 80mm which is the same as a KV-1 (10+ heavy tank rating) but the sides are 50mm and the rear 25mm.
So I'm thinking a medium tank (9+ armour) with extra frontal armour so it'll end up with similar armour to a Panther.  Bit squiffy but it wil make this the tough nut they were supposed to be.

[fred]

Nice progress on a really weird tank!

bolt action stats wise I'm a bit torn.... the armour ratings in Bolt Action only have a passing logic.

Indeed...