looking into Asal Uttar - the Indian Kursk. Anyone know about forces involved?

[aktr]

Hi,

I'm looking into making some homebrew army lists for Fate of a Nation to cover the 65-71 Indian Pakistani wars and thought a good place to start would be to cover the forces involved in the battle of Asal Uttar.

I've done some poking around and drawn up a rough list of what should be available to each side. I was just wondering if there's anything obvious I'm missing?

India
Leg Infantry with Brens, SMLE and M20 super Bazooka
6pdr guns
106mm RCL - possibly on jeeps
81mm mortar
Recon Jeeps
M4 Sherman 76 (might be easy 8s?)
Centurion Mk 5s with 20pdrs
AMX-13/75
25pdr artillery

Pakistan
Leg infantry with Bren SMLE, M20 super bazooka - possibly with M1 helmet
60mm mortar
81mm mortar
106mm RCL - possibly on jeeps
25dpr guns
M47 Pattons
M4 Pattons (90mm)
M24 Chaffee
M4 Sherman 76 (again might be E8s)

Thanks

Andy

[bluewillow]

There was a list that was put together by somebody on the old 20mm “Guild forum” that sadly went during the last crash. There may be lists on SOTCW forum or a micromark list on the Wargames vault.

Cheers
Matt

[Ultravanillasmurf]

You might want to have a look at these:
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/m4a3e4/m4a3e4.html
75mm style turrets with 76mm guns.

[carlos marighela]

India in ‘71 gets T-54 as well, in fact they are the main MBT in use by then. As Pakistan had near identical T-59s, the Indian army put fake, sheet metal fume extractors mid way down the barrel for recognition purposes.

IIRC the Shermans were not Easy 8s, they were re-gunned earlier models, in Pakistan’s case renovated older Shermans supplied under MAP, mostly ex M4A1 hulls. US supplied a lot of these M4s post war as aid, see the Yugoslav Shermans in Kelly’s Heroes as an example. The E4 version applies to rearmed A1 models, E6 to former M4A3s. They also had a number of ex Indian Army Shermans from partition, possibly M4A2 or M4A4s. Don’t think the Pakistanis used M4s at Asal Uttar, just Pattons and Chaffees but I may be wrong.

The Indian ones were domestically re-gunned M4A4 and A3s. They also converted a couple of regiments’ worth with French 75mm guns, rather like the Israelis.  India also still had 75mm armed Shermans in 1965.

Otherwise looks pretty good, although the majority of photos show both sides wearing the old British battle bowler on both sides, at least in 1965. Pakitan seems to have had a mix of  SMLEs and M 1 Garands in 1965 and the Indians were definitely using SLRs, with second line troops maybe still having SMLEs. By 71, Pakistan has an eclectic mix for its frontline troops of G3s and AK clones.

[SJWi]

Helion produce a 2-volume set on the 1971 war in their "Asia at War"series. Vol 1 is out Vol 2 is "spring 2021".  Won't help you with Asal Uttar however!   

[aktr]

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback everyone

You might want to have a look at these:
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/m4a3e4/m4a3e4.html
75mm style turrets with 76mm guns.

thanks I most have misread E6 as E8

India in ‘71 gets T-54 as well, in fact they are the main MBT in use by then. As Pakistan had near identical T-59s, the Indian army put fake, sheet metal fume extractors mid way down the barrel for recognition purposes.

Yes I've got those pencilled in for when I get to 71

The Indian ones were domestically re-gunned M4A4 and A3s. They also converted a couple of regiments’ worth with French 75mm guns, rather like the Israelis.  India also still had 75mm armed Shermans in 1965.

Did they just swap the guns out like the Sherman M50 or was it a full turret swap with the AMX-75 - like the Egyptian FL-10?

Helion produce a 2-volume set on the 1971 war in their "Asia at War"series. Vol 1 is out Vol 2 is "spring 2021".  Won't help you with Asal Uttar however!   

cheers, I'll get that ordered

now I just need to work out what the skill and morale of each side will be

thanks

Andy