Kings of War in 1/72 (scratch-built, ahem, Archfiend of the Abyss ...)

[Hobgoblin]

I've never played Kings of War, though I've heard good things about it; I've generally been put off by the unnatural language ("Krudger", "Flagger", etc) and the highly specific-sounding army lists.

But I was thinking about how to make inroads into the plastic mountain, and I thought about putting some big "diorama" units together with an assortment of fantasy and historical spares and bits. A while ago, I built a few 28mm horde bases for Hordes of the Things, but I got only four or five done, as it was just taking so long to get a full army up; it's an irony of HotT that you need twice as many hordes as other units and they take at least twice as long to do as warbands or spears, etc.

But if a single big horde is a viable unit on its own, or even the centrepiece of an army, there's less of a problem. So that got me thinking about Kings of War. I've switched to 1/72 for HotT, so I might start off by rebasing my old hordes (chiefly converted chaos creature) onto a single unit base and then go from there.

The two main ideas I have for an army are a Moorcockian chaos rag-tag and an undead army with troops from lots of historical periods (so a deathly pale hoplite in corroded bronze might be marching alongside an equally unhealthy-looking foot knight in rusty plate).

Anyway, I wanted to ask the KoW players here about which army lists might work well for either or both these approaches, and how many units would be needed for a viable army. Would the chaos horde be a better fit for Abyssals or goblins, for example?

EDIT: just looked at the free rules again, and that takes care of the basing questions! But any pointers on the army types and size much appreciated!

[fred]

Was about to reply on basing - but see you have found that! Basically KoW is very multi-basing friendly, and model count isn’t super important.

I’m not really up on the current meta - but armies of 1500-2000 pts are a size we often would play with. Obviously you can play smaller on a smaller table.

The army lists are actually very broad, they have been written to take in the majority of Warhammer models - it might take a bit to get past the naming of the units, but if you look at the stats and what they do you will get a feel for which models will represent your figures the best.

There is a Varangur (sp) list that I think is closest to GW chaos - but it is probably only available in the paid for rules (or even a supplement).

[robh]

No easy answer to this really (is there ever?)

KoW allows you to field any army for any playstyle, some are better than others at one playstyle or another, some are crap, but the tactical playstyle is what determines the troops to use not the other way around.  Depending on the playstyle you choose you will therefore field your units as "Troop", "Regiment", "Horde" or "Legion". As the units get bigger you sacrifice movement and placement options for staying power. KoW is pretty rigid on how units and terrain interact.
The base size is fixed as are its combat stats, the number of figures is functionally irrelevant, hence the lovely diorama bases the system encourages.

I would recommend you watch through some of the "MasterCrafted" videos on YouTube. 
https://www.youtube.com/c/MasterCrafted/videos

The earlier ones (before Kyle sold his soul to Mantic) are better for the "why" and "how" KoW works, although they are unapologetically 'grown up' in content and presentation and assume the audience are as well. They are also for the earlier versions of the rules.
The later ones cover the actual and newer rules and army/unit choices very well, but are not as critical or entertaining as before.

This later one is a good place to start:

[Hobgoblin]

Thanks, fred!

It won't really be GW chaos - these are some of the elements I plan to rebase, so more wretched and corrupted Moorcockian hordes. Not sure what would work best - I guess they'd be infantry rather than heavy infantry, though, so I suppose I can just put a horde base or two together and then see what they'd best fit as.

For a small army - say 1,000 or 1,500 points - how many units are likely to be included? Six or seven?

[Hobgoblin]

The base size is fixed as are its combat stats, the number of figures is functionally irrelevant, hence the lovely diorama bases the system encourages.

Thanks, rob! Yes, it's the diorama base that's the main attraction.

Looking at the free rules again, I see one potential problem in deciding how to base my chaos creatures: are they infantry or heavy infantry? "Heavy infantry" seems to have a special usage in KoW, from what I can see, in that very heavily armoured dwarves seem to be just "infantry".

Apart from orcs, what else counts as "heavy infantry"?

[robh]

Apart from orcs, what else counts as "heavy infantry"?

There are a few, iirc Harpies in the Herd and Wild Hunters in the Elves are on 25mm bases.

"Heavy Infantry" is a profile not a troop type.

[Sir_Theo]

Varangur are a sort of warhammer chaos mortals equivalent,  their list (which is a variant list of Northern Alliance) is in the Uncharted empires supplement.

Heavy infantry are things like Orcs and Lizardmen, again using a warhammer reference these are things on 25mm square bases not 20mm squares. They are distinct from Large infantry (ogres, trolls etc)

Although the lists are tailored increasingly to the KoW universe they are generic enough that any fantasy type army will find a home. In terms of best fit for your guys id think either Abyssals, or possibly Nightstalkers?

[Hobgoblin]

Thanks, guys - all very helpful!

I've hit on a starting point, I think: undead warriors (zombies? skeletons? wights? whatever!) and Frostgrave gnolls as ghouls (like Arabic ghouls, which sometimes take hyena form).

If I start off working on a regiment (20) of the undead and a troop (10) of the ghouls, with 100mm frontages and 80 and 40mm depths, respectively, I can't go wrong, can I?

[Sir_Theo]

Absolutely foolproof!

Its the unit footprint thats the main thing. There is also the 'preferred model count' which gives a minimum number of models for the element. It obviously doesn't really matter if you aren't going to play in tournaments or whatever but its a good rule of thumb to stick to if you are making scenic bases- which after all is one of the fun thing about a game like KoW. Most of my models are singly based but I like to make bases with scenic elements as unit fillers.

[Chief Lackey Rich]

Thanks, guys - all very helpful!

I've hit on a starting point, I think: undead warriors (zombies? skeletons? wights? whatever!) and Frostgrave gnolls as ghouls (like Arabic ghouls, which sometimes take hyena form).

If I start off working on a regiment (20) of the undead and a troop (10) of the ghouls, with 100mm frontages and 80 and 40mm depths, respectively, I can't go wrong, can I?

Remember that the number of models for a regiment or troop (or horde or legion FTM) is fluid, it's really the base footprint that matters mechanically.  If you want a regiment with 17 or 23 ghouls (or even 40 with them riding each other piggyback...) it won't change anything in the game.  Much like Dragon Rampant, you can usually just paint what you want to paint based on aesthetics, although KoW is more fussy about unit base sizes.

EDIT:  Whoop, beaten to it.    Well, let me just add - that is the best use of a spare Ogre head I've ever seen.  Need to get a few of those for my bits box...

[fred]

Hobgoblin - before you get to far into building big bases for KoW I would suggest getting a game or two in. There are a few bits of KoW that are pretty marmite (love or hate) for most people. The biggest being that you only cause damage when you are charging /attacking (not when defending). Flanks are pretty wide, and hitting flanks gives double attacks so is key.

[Hobgoblin]

Hobgoblin - before you get to far into building big bases for KoW I would suggest getting a game or two in. There are a few bits of KoW that are pretty marmite (love or hate) for most people. The biggest being that you only cause damage when you are charging /attacking (not when defending). Flanks are pretty wide, and hitting flanks gives double attacks so is key.

Thanks, fred - that's certainly good advice. I think this project might be more about the journey than the getting there, though; I'm not going to buy the full rulebook until the armies are built.

My fallback plan is this. I'm not going to build any "horde" bases (double frontage) until I've played the game. So the units I do build will be viable for Oathmark, Book of War or even One Hour Wargames. I think double-frontage units are the point of no return, so I'll hold off on those until I've garnered some experience.

I suppose I'm really just looking for an excuse to use up surplus models and build some diorama bases! If KoW isn't my cup of tea, I should be able to find plenty of uses for troop and regiment units elsewhere.

It occurs to me that I've got two lots of those GW ghosts that were free with a partwork thing a while back. That should get me a wraith troop or two.

[fred]

Good stuff - I’d certainly suggest building troop and regiment sized bases. As even if you play lots of KoW it gives you options on how to field your force. And two regiment bases together is easy to play as a horde base anyway.

[Hobgoblin]

Good stuff - I’d certainly suggest building troop and regiment sized bases. As even if you play lots of KoW it gives you options on how to field your force. And two regiment bases together is easy to play as a horde base anyway.

Yes, good point!

I'm hoping the undead army will offer lots of scope for diorama bases - opened tombs, gothic sculptures and so on.

I see the Lower Abyssals are on 20mm bases, so that's probably the best option for my chaos creatures, who're a pretty demonic bunch on the whole. I'll do some planning and see if I can get a sample "regiment" put together fairly quickly. I might not even have to split up some of the bases, but simply blend them in with other odd figures.

For the undead, do I need a certain number of staple shamblers without much armour? I have loads of Perry knights that could be topped with skulls, but I wonder if they might be best as more elite types.

[fred]

With KoW list building there is very little ‘need’ to them - which can make it a bit hard to know where to start. The main need is to have Regiments or Hordes to unlock Heroes and Warmachines. But most lists have lots of regiment and horde options.

You don’t need to take Zombies in the undead list, but they are a very effective tar pit unit in the game. There are some very powerful undead infantry, and I think the Perry knight bodies would work better for them.