Kings of War in 1/72 (scratch-built, ahem, Archfiend of the Abyss ...)

[Hobgoblin]

Whilst base sizes do matter to a fair degree in KoW, I’m not sure 5 or 10mm is critical. An Orc horde with its large footprint is more unwieldy to move through / around terrain and friendly units and allows more enemy units to counter attack it.

Yes, I'm sure that's right. My main consideration is that the 'goblins' (actually Dark Alliance orcs) will convert easily with a few individuals, whereas the orcs will be slightly trickier and will have to have their role clarified (Ax or Greatax, etc). Also, I have loads of orcs to use up, and I want, in the end, to have as many big-base units as possible for minimal fiddly movement.

I’m not quite getting the T shaped sabot - but I have used sabot bases with a 2 up 1 back arrangement to use 3 Warmaster 40x20mm bases on a 100x50mm sabot for Warband - and those look pretty good.

The T-shape would be quite eccentric - basically, a 5mm spine to sit between two 60 x 30 bases, the spine having one 'flat/sideways' figure (like many 1/72 minis) on it to act as the central figure in the front rank. Then the 125mm x 20mm 'head' of the T would have three figures on it to form a back rank. Or it could just have four figures in the back rank (perhaps with one thrusting a spear along the 5mm spine).

I’d not worry too much about filling the sabot with figures, and I’d not worry at all about bringing units up to full figure count (other than monster types like Ogres or Trolls). KoW even has a rule to allow lower figure count units - which is around 70% of the max size. But basically as long as its obvious what is a troop, a regiment or a horde - and the base size really tells you this - as long as the figure count has a reasonable density and looks good, then you are good to go. This goes double as you are doing both sides and are unlikely to be fielding your 20mm units against the more typical 28mm KoW units.

Yes, I'll probably field some temporary sabots, at least to begin with. Oddly enough, 16 seems to be the magic number for regiments in 1/72; it's quite hard to make them much denser because of the animated poses in that scale. The one big drawback of 1/72 is that most of the 'regiments' I've experimented with so far look like unruly mobs - fine for orcs, barbarians and armoured foot knights with two-handed weapons, but less good for ordinary soldiers!

[Hobgoblin]

Well, it's been a while with this project, but I've been working on some 1/72 human knights and archers - long based and undercoated. I should get those finished in the next few days.

I've also been thinking about orcs. I'm moving to divide my miniatures into 'buckets' so that we get the most use of them. Broadly, those buckets are 1/72 for multi-based rank and flank games (HOTT, KoW, etc); penny-based 'true 25mm' for RPGs; square-based 28mm for large skirmish games and individually based rank and flank; and round slottabased for sci-fi and small-model-count skirmish (Song of Blades, etc.).

Originally, my main reason for the different basing for small and large skirmish was to bring figures with chunky integral bases (Grenadier, Mithril, etc.) to the same height as slottabased figures, so that when they were used together, they would differ in base rims but still look each other in eye.

To that end, I'd based some Prince August and Mithril orcs on square Rendedra bases. But while those orcs are imposing, they're 'off scale' next to the Nick Lund and Citadel figures I'm using for Saga and SoBH, etc. And while they'd be nice for RPGs, I've got plenty of 25mm orc tribes on the go (older Grenadier, Chronicle, Minifigs, etc.), and those figures go onto pennies quite nicely whereas the PA/Mithril stuff demands a 2p at the least - making them seem like even bigger creatures than they are.

So it occurred to me that the best use of those figures would be in 1/72 KoW, where they're suitably imposing as 'heavy infantry' next to 1/72 humans and occupy the appropriate 25mm square. They're also broadly compatible with the Ral Partha giant goblins/half-orcs/orcs that I'm using to bulk out and lead my 1/72 orcs.



So I decided to repurpose all the Prince August and Mithril stuff and put it on troop bases. A quick audit revealed enough for four such bases, with 10 figures each, and possibly enough for a fifth (especially if supplemented with Ral Partha duplicates). I also have foot and mounted commanders and a 'flagger'.

At the same time, I realised that I have enough of the original Golgfag's ogres to create a full six-model 'regiment' as allies. They're similarly sized though quite different to the red-skinned Reaper orcs I'm using as ogres for the human army.

So, with four or five 'troop bases', I'll have two regiments or a horde of ax/greatax types as the mainstay of an army, to go along with the other regiment and troop that I already have based (a mixture of Caesar and Oathmark goblins). And, while there's lots of painting to be done, I've got a paint scheme (the grey skin/red livery above) in place.

Onwards!

[Hobgoblin]

It occurred to me that large numbers of trolls and ogres would facilitate the completion of full-size armies (six figures for a 'horde' rather than 40!).

So I've been digging out lots of old metal candidates: the original Golgfag's, Asgard trolls and half-trolls and even an old Bryan Ansell Citadel ogre with wonderfully floppy ears. I've already pressed various Acropolis ugrucks into service, and I'm going to rebase some early Ral Partha and Citadel trolls that have barely been used since I painted them up. I might even press the second edition of Golgfag's into service too. I'm even starting to wonder whether Bob Olley Essex and Iron Claw orcs might be happiest as ogres, though that might be a step too far.

But the easiest way to get lots of 1/72 trolls (or ogres) is to use up some GW orcs.

Putting goblin heads on orcs is a trick I've used before, but it seems the obvious one to go to here. The smaller heads make the bulky bodies more grotesque. I'll probably keep orc heads on some of them, though, to add to the variety, perhaps with some green-stuffed beards or even noses. I might even try making some of them two-headed.

According to the leading source on the subject (Ruth Manning-Sanders' wonderful A Book of Ogres and Trolls), the distinction between ogres and trolls is largely one of geography (and sometimes temperament). So many of the troops I'm assembling will serve as either species as army lists demand.

I'm going to keep all the old metal ogres/trolls individually based, as their weight should help to keep the units nicely formed up. For the lighter plastics, though, I'm going to go with multi-basing, so that the GW-derived ogres and trolls will stay in formation and be readily manoeuvred. I'm aiming to put four 'regiment' bases together, which would allow the deployment of an ogre 'legion' if required.

[Pattus Magnus]

Great idea to repurpose the old orcs via a head-swap! It’s funny how well the goblin head fits that body,  given the difference in the size of the goblins and orcs.

[Hobgoblin]

Cheers! It helps that those old goblins are so ugly and macrocephalic to begin with - and that they look so trollishly grumpy!

Here's the first completed unit for the 1/72 KoW project - a troop of scouts or archers. They'll probably be "sisterhood scouts" in the Basilean list initially, though I imagine there's something that would suit them in the Kingdoms of Men list, which I have yet to acquire. As with all my HOTT stuff, I haven't quite decided what to do about greenery on the bases - whether to use flock or just to paint it on. I'll probably go with the latter and will then blitz all the bases to ensure some consistency.

I have a regiment of foot knights (paladins) on the go too - and made the fortunate discovery last night of 18 or so individually based 1/72 knights that I'd painted up a few years ago and forgotten about. Those will get rebased for this project, probably as a couple of troops rather than a regiment for maximum flexibility. So I should have two regiments of knights as the building blocks of the human army, along with these scouts and some ogre palace guards (for which I'll use GW Stormcast) and/or ogre allies (Reaper orcs).

I'm hoping that we can get a decent-sized game going in the next couple of weeks. Using large numbers of ogres or trolls as the backbones of both armies seems to be the way to go to get started quickly; three trolls doesn't necessarily take much longer than three humans! And I only need to paint a few individually based Ral Partha goblins to bring all my HOTT goblin hordes into play as KoW units.

[Hobgoblin]

One thing I've been puzzling over for a while is how to base my old Citadel broo. I've got at least 20, and they're lovely old miniatures. I also have a few very early Citadel minotaurs and Trish Carden chaos beastmen, which are compatible. It struck me that if I base them on old-school 25mm squares, they'll work fine in RuneQuest 2 (they're appropriately scaled as a bit larger, on average, than humans with my true-25 RPG stuff), skirmishes and massed-battle games.

In Kings of War, they'd do the trick as either Hunters of the Wild or Longhorns. My experience has been that individually based metal miniatures are fine in rank-and-flank games because their weight allows them to be shunted around en masse without breaking formation.

I think they look OK as quite formidable KoW 'heavy infantry' next to 1/72 figures. And this will allow me to resolve the basing dilemma, paint them up at long last and get most use out of them on the table!

[Mr. White]

Those archers look great! Are they the Dark Alliance Southern Kingdom Warriors?

[Hobgoblin]

Thank! And yes, "rangers and scouts".

[Hobgoblin]

Here's a second troop done bar the basing. These are the individually based knights I'd forgotten about. I'll aim to get their base done today; the colour scheme is actually the same as for the archers, but with added 'grass'. That's probably what I'll aim for for the whole lot.

I picked up a box of Caesar's 13th-century knights this morning; they should yield three troops or a regiment and a troop, plus some spares (a good hero or army standard bearer among them). I'm considering whether to paint them in individual heraldry or treat them like members of a military order and standardise the surcoats. Decisions, decisions ...

[LouieN]

The look great

[Mr. White]

The speed and quality you crank models out amaze me. Well done.

Are these knights Caesar?

[Hobgoblin]

Thanks, both!

The speed and quality you crank models out amaze me. Well done.

These guys were done about a year ago - they're just being rebased. So I'm cheating a bit!

Are these knights Caesar?

Yes, they're Caesar 15th-century knights. I'm making a start on the 13th-century chaps this evening; I've decided to paint them in a vaguely military-order Crusader fashion, for speed if nothing else! I noticed that the local model shop also had the dismounted Crusaders in stock; I may be tempted to add those too to mix and match with the 13th-century guys. It's a shame Caesar doesn't do much in the way of cavalry; the plastic they use is by far the best in the 1/72 world for glueing, painting and converting.

[Hobgoblin]

I was surveying our 1/72 hoard (and indeed hordes) while looking through the KoW rulebook. I noticed the orcling swarms in the orc army list and immediately though of the Caesar goblins. It turns out that I have 29 of these left over - just enough to create six bases (two regiments or a horde) with the standard bearer given appropriate space so that one base contains four rather than five. If five would work better, I might add a Magister Militimum 18mm orc or something as a fierce-looking leader - or a spare Citadel snotting.

I always like to maximise the versatility of any miniatures I paint up. The good thing about swarm bases is that they'll work as hordes in 15mm Hordes of the Things (using the first-edition square bases - you're allowed to vary base depth in HOTT). So a horde for KoW will give me six hordes for 15mm HOTT, which I occasionally play. And any three of our KoW ogres and trolls will give me half an army in HOTT behemoths. On top of that, the swarm bases will be handy for RPGs.

Then I thought about the question of bringing our 1/72 HOTT hordes (60 x 40mm bases) into KoW. Adding some Dark Alliance orcs on 40 x 40 bases would sort out that problem, so that a 60 x 40 and a 40 x 40 make a troop. If I paint up two units of DA orcs on 40 x 40 bases, I'll have a full regiment of KoW goblins. So by painting 12 or so more orcs, I can get two full regiments of goblin rabble for KoW - the basis for a reasonable army along with some trolls, or extras ('red goblins') for an ogre army.

The DA orcs on 40mm squares could also be used as orclings - perhaps as the more powerful 'Wip's playmates' sort. So that would give the orc army quite a few miserable underlings to throw into battle. The DA orcs are tiny next to the Mithril and Prince August orcs that I'm going to be using for the mainstay of the army. And in 15mm HOTT, they'd work as warbands (again, with extra base depth, which is fine) or even brutes (in non-competition games)

It also occurs to me that I might use pure units of Caesar orcs as 'youngax' units - so I could potentially have a full orc lifecycle on show from Caesar goblins, DA orcs, Caesar orcs and Mithril/PA orcs. And in the process, I'll get a full 15mm HOTT army with various options.

In looking at lots of half-prepared cavalry units for HOTT, I decided that the sensible thing to do would be to take Fred's advice on this thread and not worry too much about basing. Two HOTT cavalry units are 120 x 40mm, which is close enough to 125mm x 50mm not to worry about - especially as it should allow us to field some much-needed cavalry very quickly. And by combining light and heavier cavalry elements, I can even get the standard five figures for a KoW cavalry troop. I also have HOTT beast elements of DA warg riders underway, which would combine for a near-enough 120 x 60 unit of either goblin or orc cavalry in KoW.

[Mr. White]

What models are being used for cavalry? Also, do you have any fantasy  buildings and this scale to use as scatter terrain? Any recommendations there?

[Hobgoblin]

What models are being used for cavalry?

Those are HaT Andalusian or Almoravid cavalry (or maybe both) from the El Cid range.

I want to get hold of the Caesar crusader cavalry, but they seem to be hard to find at the moment. So, if I do make some purpose-built KoW elements, I'll probably use Tumbling Dice metal 1/72 knights.

Also, do you have any fantasy  buildings and this scale to use as scatter terrain? Any recommendations there?

We have some Dave Graffam medieval buildings that we printed out a while back; we've used those in HOTT a few times. They were printed out at 28mm scale, I think, but they look just fine with 1/72. As I've got a ton of the files, we'll probably print out some more at some point - although sometimes it's just as quick to scratch-build things from boxes and scrap cardboard!

I find scratch-built buildings tend to be more robust, although the Dave Graffam ones look great. They're periodically on sale very cheaply at DriveThruRPG and Wargames Vault, and I think there's a free sample or two on the website. And there are recommendations for what percentage to print them out at for various scales. I don't think there's a huge difference between the look of a 25mm/28mm building and a 1/72 one, though - and for massed battles, the buildings are more representative than anything else (the figure ratio - 1:100 - or whatever will distort things).