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Author Topic: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?  (Read 4125 times)

Offline AdmiralAndy

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Re: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2021, 01:18:33 PM »

I stopped using lion rampant as I quite like being able to decide how large I want a unit to be, rather than being restricted to 12 or 6 figures per unit. Very interested in the new iteration though!

Some versions of the Rampant Rules Engine do have options for units to be bigger so might be one of the options/updates with 2nd ed.

Offline AdmiralAndy

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Re: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2021, 01:27:51 PM »
I like the current activation system. I find it works pretty well and although quite a few people whinge about it, provided you keep your leader close to the units under his command, you’re judicious in picking the right order type for the situation, and also activating your units in the optimum order for success, I’ve found in both LR and TPL that activation failures are actually not all that common, and absolute turn-ending stymies rare. Just don’t try and do the most difficult activations first :)

I think most of those who 'whinge' are probably players who don't like Friction and elements of Fog of War and Command & Control, when it used to be seeing changes in flag signals, hearing the changing drum beat/bugle call over shouts, screams, and clash of arms and a leader shouting himself hoarse to get his guys moving when they didn't quite fancy it.

Whilst it can be frustrating if having a bad run (there are tweaks and house rules around this), it averages out being the same for the other guy too. Whilst somewhat abstracted I like that all of that Friction is neatly captured with a stat you test against with 2 dice with minimal modifiers generally from a Leader if in range and thats it.

Offline Hobgoblin

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Re: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2021, 01:33:15 PM »
I like the current activation system. I find it works pretty well and although quite a few people whinge about it, provided you keep your leader close to the units under his command, you’re judicious in picking the right order type for the situation, and also activating your units in the optimum order for success, I’ve found in both LR and TPL that activation failures are actually not all that common, and absolute turn-ending stymies rare. Just don’t try and do the most difficult activations first :)

That's my feeling too.

One thing I've noticed with our most recent games (actually DR, but with only LR troop types for the most part) was that games played with the recommended 24 points work particularly well because there are typically only four or five units on each side. So there's less likelihood of the sort of major 'stranding' that you might get with a bigger game. A lot of our games had drifted out to much bigger points totals, but I think I'll focus on 24-pointers in future. At 24 points, the changes in initiative are quite fast and furious, and you're typically only missing out on a unit or two with a failure.

We've used the FFoL activation at the club. Although I haven't played in any of the games where the FFoL amendment was used all the guys playing thought it to be a vast inprovement. Hopefully I will get a chance to find out soon :)

That's interesting. I confess I prefer the FFoL activation to the rest of the game. It is a very good game, but I find it a bit fiddlier than the Rampant games because of the tokens. But the activation system is brilliant.

For a multi-player game, you could do it in a couple of ways: have a card dealt per unit, or have a card dealt per player (keeping the chances of failure but randomising the turn sequence. I think Savage Worlds uses the latter approach.

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2021, 10:05:53 AM »

One thing I've noticed with our most recent games (actually DR, but with only LR troop types for the most part) was that games played with the recommended 24 points work particularly well because there are typically only four or five units on each side. So there's less likelihood of the sort of major 'stranding' that you might get with a bigger game. A lot of our games had drifted out to much bigger points totals, but I think I'll focus on 24-pointers in future. At 24 points, the changes in initiative are quite fast and furious, and you're typically only missing out on a unit or two with a failure.


I think this is the key point. LR and its spin-offs are designed for probably 4 - 6 units per side, not 20. If you're only playing with a few units, and you don't do stupid things like trying to carry out the most difficult activations first, the chances of getting your whole command bogged down by a failed activation are actually quite slim. I played a game of TPL where one player insisted on trying to fire his gun - requiring a roll of 8 - as his first activation every turn, and then wondered why he kept getting stymied and unable to move his other units, who only needed to roll of 5 or more  ::)
Of course you can get a run of sheer bad luck, and end up rolling sub-5 on two dice. But statistically, to successfully roll 5s, 6s, and 7s or better, the odds are heavily in your favour.

I've mostly played larger games with two or three players a side, each controlling 20 - 30 points worth of troops. Per the rules, for multi-player games, if one unit fails its activation, that ends that particular player's turn - but the other players on the same side can still take their turns (unless and until one of their units fails its activation of course). This keeps the game moving along nicely for the most part.

I'm not a fan of 'friction' in general in wargames rules. I also usually have terrible luck with dice lol  But in LR/TPL I just don't find that failed activations happen often enough for them to feel like a major problem. (Now the wretched Tiffin card in Sharp Practice, that's a different matter  >:D :-[)

Offline Silent Invader

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Re: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2021, 10:34:59 AM »
I pretty much agree with the above.

In games I’ve actually wanted to fire a gun first - and failed the activation with its consequence - but did so having considered the possibilities.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that putting easier activations at risk to take a chance on an extreme action that could change the entire course of a game comes with the potential for adverse consequences.
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Offline Malamute

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Re: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2021, 10:41:00 AM »


It seems perfectly reasonable to me that putting easier activations at risk to take a chance on an extreme action that could change the entire course of a game comes with the potential for adverse consequences.

A bit like leaving your pirate ship unattended. ;) lol
"These creatures do not die like the bee after the first sting, but go on age after age, feeding on the blood of the living"  - Abraham Van Helsing

Offline Dr. Zombie

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Re: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2021, 03:09:01 PM »
When we play larger games of LR with larger armies and multiple players. We do random activations by drawing tokens. But each player has two tokens in the pot. That way even if you fail an activation you have a second chance later in the turn.

Offline Silent Invader

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Re: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2021, 04:45:21 PM »
When we play larger games of LR with larger armies and multiple players. We do random activations by drawing tokens. But each player has two tokens in the pot. That way even if you fail an activation you have a second chance later in the turn.


Great idea for larger games  8)

Offline Silent Invader

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Re: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2021, 04:46:33 PM »
A bit like leaving your pirate ship unattended. ;) lol

And I’d do it again as stealing it from me has given you so much pleasure  :D lol

Offline Hobgoblin

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Re: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2021, 06:37:09 PM »
One more thought on "fail-activation" games in general: there's a colossal difference in how they play when people are quick about taking their turns.

Song of Blades and Heroes (etc.) is a great example here. It's clearly designed to be played very quickly: you point at your miniature and roll your one to three dice, and on you go. Lion Rampant plays really well when played in the same spirit: whipping through activation rolls and moving quickly (sabots really help here) - and when you get to melee, both combatant players have something to do. And the design of LR helps in that regard - because you're rolling for a specific declared action (shoot, move, attack, form up, etc.).

'Stranded' units or figures often don't seem nearly so stranded when the rolling is done at a quick pace. Song of Blades often gives a very realistic depiction of a small-scale brawl or skirmish, with people hanging back or retreating hastily or routing altogether, but it works much better when people make instant decisions and keep it as 'real time' as possible.

Lion Rampant is quite similar, I think: those tardy knights are just surveying the scene with aristocratic sang froid rather than just being useless!

Offline Pattus Magnus

  • Scientist
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Re: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2021, 07:38:22 PM »
Another possibility for large games is to split each side up into several forces (“battles” if you want to keep medieval themed), each with a leader. Player 1 starts and picks a force, then does activations following the rules as written ( or whichever variant you’re using). When player 1 fails an activation or runs out of units, player 2 picks a force and activates it. Play alternates between the sides until all the forces are done, ending the turn.

Offline Hu Rhu

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Re: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2021, 07:39:45 PM »
And I’d do it again as stealing it from me has given you so much pleasure  :D lol

He certainly hasn't stopped talking about it.  lol lol lol

Lion Rampant is quite similar, I think: those tardy knights are just surveying the scene with aristocratic sang froid rather than just being useless!

Another possibility for large games is to split each side up into several forces (“battles” if you want to keep medieval themed), each with a leader. Player 1 starts and picks a force, then does activations following the rules as written ( or whichever variant you’re using). When player 1 fails an activation or runs out of units, player 2 picks a force and activates it. Play alternates between the sides until all the forces are done, ending the turn.

That's a great way to stimulate one battle (or ward) not supporting another. Just think of of the Battle of Tewkesbury, where Wenlock's Main battle didn't support Somerset's attack.  He got an axe in the head for his tardiness.  :-X

I agree that if you are into 'narrative' games, you can always find a plausible reason as to why said unit chooses not to do what you want it to do. 

A little chaos goes a long way in making a great game.  Even the tiffin card or a set of park benches providing cover against charging knights.  Eh Richard  8) 8)
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 07:44:00 PM by Hu Rhu »

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2021, 09:12:33 PM »
lol yes indeed Gary

Offline Malamute

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Re: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2021, 02:26:19 PM »
lol yes indeed Gary

All good stories deserve to be told frequently. Bit like throwing someone out of a biplane 😜😂

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: Lion Rampant 2nd ed HC?
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2021, 03:55:38 PM »
All good stories deserve to be told frequently. Bit like throwing someone out of a biplane 😜😂

Twice!  :D

A biplane in the underbelly of a Zeppelin as I recall  lol

I can’t believe you’re still harbouring a grudge about that  ;)

 

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