What system would you use for a tabletop "ruin-crawl"?

[Hobgoblin]

Having acquired a full-sized wargame table last week, I've been staging some outdoor games of Dragon Rampant for the kids and their friends. The extra space (over a dining table) is fantastic.

Now, one thing that occurred to me when looking at all the space is how great it would be to stage a massive "semi-roleplaying" skirmish game on a table that size. Rather than a strict dungeon-crawl, I'm thinking of filling the table with ruins, possibly with an underground section or two on auxiliary tables. And then the players could each lead a small team of adventurers through it - cooperating or competing as they see fit - and contending with whatever lurks within.

This would be refereed game. I'd know where the monsters were and control their reactions (or have the dice control them). But I'm not sure what system to use. We play Basic D&D a lot, but something less abstract might be better for this. Fistful of Lead might do - but might make ganging up on the monsters too easy or get too complex, as their numbers would be constantly changing. Song of Blades and Heroes (or Tales of Blades and Heroes) can get bogged down with too many foes on the table. Pulp Alley has been my go-to for similar things, but without the refereed element and large numbers of NPCs/monsters.

I could use a pure RPG system like RuneQuest (it would take a lot of prep work but might be OK, though possibly too slow for groups of PCs plus henchmen). Melee/The Fantasy Trip is an option too, but we won't be using hex grids.

I've been thinking vaguely about looking at Goalsystem Delves, though I have no idea of how that would work. Or Savage Worlds, maybe, though I've never played it. Something in the part-RPG, part-skirmish bracket. If I don't find anything better suited, I'll probably default to Pulp Alley, though I wonder if it might break down with a whole complex full of monsters/NPCs.

So - any suggestions for what would handle this nicely? Loads of monsters, though few or none visible before exploration begins, players ultimately competing though perhaps cooperating at times, and played over a 6 x 4 table with loads of terrain. What would work best? Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

[Knight-Captain Tyr]

Rangers of Shadow Deep. You can adapt or extend the scenarios as you see fit, and it's an extremely simple system, with plenty of scope for cooperation between players. The D20 system is simple enough kids won't get lost in a more complex ruleset like Vanguard or Mordheim.

[Hobgoblin]

Ah - that's an idea! Thanks! I haven't played it, though we do have Sellswords & Spellslingers, which is similar, I gather.

Does Rangers have "AI" that essentially covers the monster actions? I'm envisaging a set-up where there'll be creatures in certain spots that will be "triggered" by sounds nearby or lines of sight being crossed, etc.

[Knight-Captain Tyr]

Yep, in fact the AI system is so simple it's even possible with solo play. It's very straightforward, but can lead to some interesting situations where cooperation is necessary to survive.

RoSD has a thriving online community, with a lot of reference sheets/play cards made by fans on the Facebook group and freely available to download/print. Might help if playing with a youngish group to help keep visual interest.

[robh]

Savage Worlds, which you already identified, would do this perfectly as it does not require a pre-determined storyline like SS&SS or Rangers.
The system is easy to pick up and with the use of the "Bennies" you are able to make allowances for bad luck dice rolls that can spoil young players enjoyment.
SW Fantasy exists as a generic framework but there are also masses of specific expansions that take the SW system and use it to run games set in the worlds of Middle Earth, Eberron, Age of Sigmar, Slaine, Warcraft, Conan, Elder Scrolls, Erin............and more not to mention the selection of Historical, Sci-Fi or Horror variants also
Whatever flavour suits the audience, the settings include the skills and creatures required over and above the basic vanilla D&D

[Sunjester]

I'd say use Sellswords and Spellslingers. I have been playing with the idea of doing something similar myself, using counters for foes. The players do not know what they are until they get a LOS on the bad guys (or are contacted). I  might even throw in a few dummies to keep the players on their toes.

[Hobgoblin]

Thanks, all - lots more food for thought. I'd completely forgotten about the SS&SS/RoSD solo options, so will have to look at them carefully.

Savage Worlds, which you already identified, would do this perfectly as it does not require a pre-determined storyline like SS&SS or Rangers.

Now that's quite an important point. I'd hope that this could be a sort of "megadungeon" experience that could be set up any sunny weekend or holiday afternoon and would allow a lot of repeat play. So if the ruined temple was cleared of gnolls last time, bugbears might have moved in, and so on. I reckon that if I go to the trouble of making lots of scenery, I want it to be reusable!

So, yes, I want the emphasis to be on exploration and surprise, in the RPG vein, but with the whole set-up on the table. I'd also like the opportunity for some non-hostile encounters - even in-game recruitment, perhaps using treasure as bribes. And perhaps some competing hidden motives for the players: Player A wants the Chalice of Light whereas Player B needs to ensure that a mortal dies on the Altar of Pain during the session, or whatever.

The system is easy to pick up and with the use of the "Bennies" you are able to make allowances for bad luck dice rolls that can spoil young players enjoyment.

Good point - although they're used to my harsh DMing! We've had plenty of PC deaths in our regular campaign - and more in our occasional, episodic low-level one! But keeping players in the game will be important. I was thinking that if I have lots of different groups of monsters living cheek-by-jowl in the ruins, a yet-unrevealed group could be handed to an eliminated player, allowing involvement to continue.

SW Fantasy exists as a generic framework but there are also masses of specific expansions that take the SW system and use it to run games set in the worlds of Middle Earth, Eberron, Age of Sigmar, Slaine, Warcraft, Conan, Elder Scrolls, Erin............and more not to mention the selection of Historical, Sci-Fi or Horror variants also
Whatever flavour suits the audience, the settings include the skills and creatures required over and above the basic vanilla D&D

I'll take a good look. Pretty sure I've got some version of the rules somewhere. Thanks!

I suppose what I'm going for here is a sort of 'Braunstein' thing - almost an RPG, but with everything shown in miniature and all on one table. I'm planning to make some of the ruins quite dungeon-like, with walled corridors and intact, though roofless, rooms. And there will be underground sections that I'll lay out with floorplans if anyone gets down there.

[Hobgoblin]

I've perused various reviews of Savage Worlds, and it looks fairly close to the mark. I gather that combat with lots of foes can be quite quick, which is a plus because I want potential wandering-monster results to be an invasion of goblins from off the table and that sort of thing.

Also, I like the sound of social mechanics for this - so that there's a quickly resolvable way of getting past a grumpy ogre without fighting or bribing some loitering orcs to help you in return for loot.

From what I can gather, initiative is similar to Fistful of Lead - but with built-in mechanics for large numbers of enemies (who may not be all on the same side as each other).

Does anyone have much experience of Goalsystem Delves? That seems to exist in a similar bracket.

I haven't ruled out RoSD or SS&SS - although it occurs to me that I might use those for different games with the same table set-up.

[Eric the Shed]

have you thought about a coop version of Frostgrave - great fun

We did this a few years back - small report here http://shedwars.blogspot.com/2017/02/monster-bash-frostgrave-style.html

[Hobgoblin]

Wow! That looks amazing. That's exactly the sort of tabletop I want to set up: dense with nooks and crannies in which all manner of things might lurk.

I do have Frostgrave, but the centrality of magic (and spell lists!) to the game is probably a bit much for a 'turn up and play' sort of thing with maybe seven or eight players. But the same table set-up could be used for that on a different occasion. We've got a longstanding plan to play some Frostgrave with some friends who live round the corner, so this could be the catalyst to get that done too.

I'll have a good read through your report - many thanks!

[Blackwolf]

I would use Runequest,just simplify the strike rank system  ,and hit points.

[Cat]

Savage Worlds or The Fantasy Trip would be my top contenders.

[Hobgoblin]

I would use Runequest,just simplify the strike rank system  ,and hit points.

It's certainly tempting. I've got sufficient RQ2 books on PDF to just print out stat blocks for monsters and characters. The only things I wonder about is whether the high lethality/realism might make the PCs very short-lived in some cases. And, if we have six to eight players, it might bog down a bit with attack/parry/location/damage, etc. But we've been experimenting here with RQ as a skirmish game (for one-on-one games), so I'll think about it some more. Thanks!

Savage Worlds or The Fantasy Trip would be my top contenders.

Yes, The Fantasy Trip is almost perfect for this, and I've used it before for something similar (a birthday-party one-shot). The hexes are really the only obstacle, as they're so important to movement and manoeuvre. For the birthday-party game, I printed out loads of hex-gridded locations, including open-air ones. For this, I'd need to get a completely hex-gridded mat - although I think a local manufacturer does do those.

So that sort of leaves it as a cost-benefit thing of mat vs rulebook.

How have you found Savage Worlds to play as a miniatures game? I get the impression that it's quite 'heroic', which would be about right for this. I'm thinking that the PCs would each have a hero and a couple of henchmen, and they wouldn't necessarily be cooperating (which is where card-based initiative might help).

[Blackwolf]

Yeah, I would lose the hit locations,as in Call of Cthulhu and just use hit points as one stat. If the adventurers are in armour they should be okay,and those that aren’t should be shooting things et cetera. Played RQ like this for years,much less confusing. Most characters in Glorantha were loaded up with healing spells...

[BZ]

Yes, The Fantasy Trip is almost perfect for this, and I've used it before for something similar (a birthday-party one-shot). The hexes are really the only obstacle, as they're so important to movement and manoeuvre. For the birthday-party game, I printed out loads of hex-gridded locations, including open-air ones. For this, I'd need to get a completely hex-gridded mat - although I think a local manufacturer does do those.

A silly question maybe, but cant You just convert hexes to inches? There certainly could be some undecided situations from this, but that shouldnt be a problem in non-competitive play.