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Author Topic: The Men Who Would Be Tsars  (Read 3233 times)

Offline doctorphalanx

  • Bookworm
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    • doctorphalanx
Re: The Men Who Would Be Tsars
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2022, 11:38:18 AM »
I found these very simple adaptions. I regret I didn't note the name of the author. I'm not adopting the following exactly but  it's going to he the main basis of my approach:

""Russian Civil War. All infantry and cavalry classed as irregular. Tanks/armoured cars classed as crewed weapons in hard cover, but limited to a maximum of 3 crew. Tanks move at infantry speed and can move through obstacles/barbed wire , armoured cars at regular cavalry speed. Commissars are attached to infantry and cavalry units. A unit with a commissar can increase discipline roll by +1 at any time (before dice are rolled) but at the cost of one figure from the unit (to encourage the others!)."

Offline trev

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Re: The Men Who Would Be Tsars
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2022, 04:24:16 PM »
Good luck Doc and please do update us on your project.

One point.  I'm not sure the idea of commissars shooting people as motivation is really authentic for the civil war.  The Bolos didn't have that level of authority that early.  I think they are better presented as enthusiastic, energetic or charismatic leaders, often without too much military skill.

Offline Mike Blake

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  • Size Does Matter! - 54mm - The One True Scale
Re: The Men Who Would Be Tsars
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2022, 10:58:12 AM »
historically Trev you are quite right but sometimes the propaganda makes for a more fun game??????
Size Does Matter! - 54mm - The One True Scale

Offline AdmiralAndy

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Re: The Men Who Would Be Tsars
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2022, 11:15:04 AM »
Hi Folks,

For anyone wanting to easily emulate this, looking at the thread, I suspect this variation arose from a WW1 adaption from Wargames Illustrated a while back.

Link here:
https://www.wargamesillustrated.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Foch-The-Men-Who-Would-Be-Kings-English.pdf

I mused about using the WW1 rules and vehicles etc for the Rif War maybe sometime, so kept them in the back of mind as a maybe useful oneday...

Offline Ignatieff

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Re: The Men Who Would Be Tsars
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2022, 12:48:59 PM »
cracking game and good discussion on rules and sources.  Thanks chaps
"...and as always, we are dealing with strange forces far beyond our comprehension...."

All limitations are self imposed.  Work hard and dream big.

Offline doctorphalanx

  • Bookworm
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    • doctorphalanx
Re: The Men Who Would Be Tsars
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2022, 04:40:06 PM »
Trev, I understand Commissars were  also  thin on the ground.

I considered Foch but it had more in it than I needed. The key idea is treating vehicles as crew-served weapons.

I also intend to use TMWWBK for the Irish War of Independence so am working on definitions for Crossley Tenders, armoured trucks and shotgun groups.

Offline Nogbad

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Re: The Men Who Would Be Tsars
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2022, 11:41:20 PM »
er, shouldn't that be The Men Who Would Be Heroic Proletarian Champions of the Great Workers' Collectivist Struggle Against Imperialist Exploitation? Seems more catchy.
Anyway, we too recently used MWWBK to play a RCW/Back of Beyond game (will supply a few pics when I remember how to do it) and found the rules easily adaptable to the period, even with an armoured train. We used the rules not because they are particularly period appropriate, because they aren't, but because everybody sort of knows them.
Where we found they aren't so great is in battles involving large numbers of units - at least a dozen on each side - principally because all the different leaders' abilities are so hard to remember! Others may have fared better on this but it was just after Christmas and brains were a little cloudy.
I think you have to be a little open-minded on unit type definitions, otherwise you can end up with every unit the same, ie not terribly good. So we had officers' regts, ChON, and naval infantry as Regular (the first both fierce and elite, second elite and third fierce), and Cossacks as Regular lancers (because they would surely be fierce if Regular cavalry were allowed to be). Other infantry tended to be irregular, Bolshevik cavalry was regular but no upgrades.
We should have made the train tougher as, with everyone pouring fire into it, including infantry with grenades, it didn't last as long as it should.
We treated AFVs as crew-served weapons and they proved particularly uninspiring, tho they had some dreadful leaders. One never got his vehicle started for the entire battle.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 11:44:23 PM by Nogbad »

Offline Mark Plant

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 502
    • Pygmy Wars : Russian Civil War and Related Stuff
Re: The Men Who Would Be Tsars
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2022, 12:01:02 AM »
Nice pictures!

Given the period "The Men Who Would be Atamans" perhaps?

I wouldn't feel too bad about the train struggling -- if a train did allow infantry to within grenade range, it was in major difficulty. They would usually have bugged out long before it got to that, because if some men get behind it and tore up the track, it is in big trouble. Perhaps increasing the number of MGs on them, so that enemy can't close in like that would help.

It's a vexed question how to deal with armour -- cars as well as trains. They were both very powerful, and could easily turn a battle, and hugely vulnerable. My reading is that the crews of both tended to play it very safe, and retire unless things were going swimmingly, rather than take a risk and have one lucky artillery shell lead to them being immobilised and captured.

Offline Nogbad

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Re: The Men Who Would Be Tsars
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2022, 01:12:13 AM »
thanks, yes, or maybe the Men Who Would Be Atamen.
I actually wanted to use your fine adaptation of Red Actions! but the others complained about learning new rules. Pathetic.
Wasn't my idea to allow grenades to damage a train - I wonder whether they would have done. Didn't want to make the train too powerful but in retrospect it wasn't powerful enough. We only allowed two guns and two MGs and each car was armour class 4.
As for The armoured cars, I agree - they have to be pretty vulnerable to breaking down. (After reading Peter Fleming's description of the astonishing and endless sand and dust storms in News from Tartary, I'd be surprised that any gun fired let alone vehicle worked out there!)
The scenario didn't allow for the train to retreat - it had to get past a track blockage and get through. No doubt, way too many cars and tanks on the field for authenticity but they all looked too wonderful in those days to waste.

Offline Mark Plant

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    • Pygmy Wars : Russian Civil War and Related Stuff
Re: The Men Who Would Be Tsars
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2022, 01:26:30 AM »
Forcing a passage is a good scenario for an armoured train. I was just reading about some doing it against the Poles recently, with mixed success.

I have an interesting story in a book I'm putting up soon on Pygmy Wars about two armoured cars repelling a Red attack. The guns kept jamming, the cars kept breaking down and the crew had to be plied with alcohol to agree to enter combat in the first place. But while in operation, despite that, they did hold off an attack.

Offline Nogbad

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Re: The Men Who Would Be Tsars
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2022, 12:59:42 AM »
Interesting tale. Wonder how much alcohol played a role in the war.

Offline Mark Plant

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    • Pygmy Wars : Russian Civil War and Related Stuff
Re: The Men Who Would Be Tsars
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2022, 04:30:46 AM »
Not much, because as Cuprum points out its production was banned long previously.

But when troops did stumble across alcohol supplies, the normal reaction was to drink it all, even to the point of passing out.

Offline FramFramson

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Re: The Men Who Would Be Tsars
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2022, 04:52:09 AM »
Reminds me of the WWII stories of Russian troops being issued gas mask kits, which included some denatured alcohol for cleaning the kit. The men frequently used the charcoal filters from the gas masks to filter the alcohol to make it drinkable again... and down the hatch.  lol


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Offline cuprum

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Re: The Men Who Would Be Tsars
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2022, 05:05:22 AM »
The role of alcohol in the Russian Civil War was enormous. At least - for the Bolsheviks. The only significant source of fuel for Russia was Baku oil. And Soviet Russia was cut off from these reserves for a long time. On the territory of the Soviet republic, fuel supplies were small and were quickly exhausted.
So the main fuel on which the red planes, armored cars, cars and so on moved was alcohol and various mixtures based on it. I know the case when the red aviation squadron received several barrels of perennial cognac alcohol as fuel)))

During the Second World War, a Soviet soldier was given 100 grams of vodka (or equivalent wine) daily.

Online Captain Darling

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Re: The Men Who Would Be Tsars
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2022, 03:40:07 AM »
Re; using TMWWBK for Inter-War gaming we are moving to a modified version of it for our Great Antipodean Adventure. We referred to Foch when updating the rules for ourselves. For vehicles we are using the portion of the A World Aflame Rules that covers them for that, they include a lot of good stuff especially a rule where vehicles must pass a test before closing on obstacles, fortifications, buildings etc which really helps stopping them becoming omnipotent!

Our QRS (well Rules really)...




Our changes are on the blog post below (less the vehicle obstacle test we add on the last play test)...
https://toysoldiersforoldgits.blogspot.com/2022/01/the-great-antipodean-adventure-very.html
"There's nothing cushy about life in the Women's Auxiliary Balloon Corps!"

http://captaindarlingsminiaturesemporium.blogspot.com.au
https://toysoldiersforoldgits.blogspot.com.au