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Author Topic: Byzantines for Manzikert?  (Read 532 times)

Offline Peter Rathgeb

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Byzantines for Manzikert?
« on: June 09, 2021, 08:03:13 PM »
I do not know too much (yet) about the Byzantines, but I have been fascinated by the Byzantine army of the Campaign and Battle of Manzikert 1071.

I am no gamer (sorry!  :D), I just collect and paint miniatures, and I like making vignettes. This is why I find the V&V Miniatures Byzantines very tasty for my purposes. Can any of the more knowledgeable members here tell me if the V&V Byzantines would suit Manzikert?

Then: I have read the books
Road to Manzikert, Byzantine and Islamic Warfare 527-1071, by Brian Todd Carey (Pen & Sword)
Manzikert 1071, The Breaking of Byzantium, by David Nicolle (Osprey Campaign)

What do you think about these books:
Byzantine Infantryman c. 900-1204, Timothy Dawson (Osprey Warrior)
Byzantine Cavalryman c. 900-1204, Timothy Dawson (Osprey Warrior)
The Varangian Guard 988-1453, Raffaele D'Amato (Osprey MaA)
Byzantine Armies 325 AD-1453 AD, Dimitris Belezos

I understand that the Byzantine Armies 886-1118 book by Ian Heath (Osprey MaA), being a bit of age, is not very satisfying? What else could be suggested if one plans to deepen one's knowledge of the Byzantine Army of the period?

Thank you very much and cheers,
Peter

Offline Atheling

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Re: Byzantines for Manzikert?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2021, 05:31:50 AM »
The Ospreys cannot be viewed as anything except primers. They are far from an in depth study of the arms and armour of the Byzantine army in the 11th CE.

Nowadays there is quite a lot of new reading on the subject. I haven't had my breakfast yet so I'll come back to this topic later. If I forget, please feel free to remind me.

Offline Peter Rathgeb

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Re: Byzantines for Manzikert?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2021, 06:56:35 AM »
The Ospreys cannot be viewed as anything except primers. They are far from an in depth study of the arms and armour of the Byzantine army in the 11th CE.

Nowadays there is quite a lot of new reading on the subject. I haven't had my breakfast yet so I'll come back to this topic later. If I forget, please feel free to remind me.

Thank you, Atheling, appreciate your help!

Offline armchairgeneral

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Re: Byzantines for Manzikert?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2021, 08:24:35 AM »
The Ospreys cannot be viewed as anything except primers. They are far from an in depth study of the arms and armour of the Byzantine army in the 11th CE.

Not sure I agree with this. I have both the Timothy Dawson books and they go into a lot of detail about the arms and armour of the Byzantines including photographs of reconstructed examples by the author. I would recommend them both and looking at the V&V miniatures they appear to be consistent with the detail contained in them.

I don't have the Osprey on Manzikert as it didn't seem to very well reviewed. What do you think of it? I may acquire the Pen and Sword book you have referenced.

Offline Atheling

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Re: Byzantines for Manzikert?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2021, 10:29:41 AM »
It's probably worth asking, what sort of level do you want to play the game?

If it's "skirmish" level and looking into how the units would be armed then the Ospreys would suffice. The more recent the Osprey the better.

If you wanted a deeper understanding of Thema tactics then Maurice's Strategikon would be the place to start- it pretty much covers 6th to 9th Century tactics, which would work very well as a primer as the Byzantine state basically faced very similar problems until very late into it's existence. It's pretty cheap and is available on amazon too.

I realise that this is a bit of a shorthand reply but, it is best to start reasonably near the beginning in order to understand better what comes later. I hope that makes sense?


Offline Peter Rathgeb

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Re: Byzantines for Manzikert?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2021, 12:02:42 PM »
Thanks for your input, armchairgeneral!

I don't have the Osprey on Manzikert as it didn't seem to very well reviewed. What do you think of it? I may acquire the Pen and Sword book you have referenced.

I rather liked the book. It does not go into (too) much depth, but it tells you what happened when and why. Very readable.

Cheers,
Peter

Offline Peter Rathgeb

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Re: Byzantines for Manzikert?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2021, 12:06:47 PM »
It's probably worth asking, what sort of level do you want to play the game?

Thank you, Atheling.

As I wrote,

I am no gamer (sorry!  :D), I just collect and paint miniatures, and I like making vignettes. This is why I find the V&V Miniatures Byzantines very tasty for my purposes. Can any of the more knowledgeable members here tell me if the V&V Byzantines would suit Manzikert?

I would only like to make a couple of vignettes or a dio on the Byzantine army in - or on the way to - Manzikert. That's why I mainly look for information on "uniforms".

Cheers,
Peter

Offline Atheling

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Re: Byzantines for Manzikert?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2021, 01:00:48 PM »
Thank you, Atheling.

As I wrote,

I would only like to make a couple of vignettes or a dio on the Byzantine army in - or on the way to - Manzikert. That's why I mainly look for information on "uniforms".

Cheers,
Peter

If you're into vignettes, you might like to take a look at an article on my blog on just that subject.
Here's a sample:

http://justaddwater-bedford.blogspot.com/2021/06/vignettes.html

Offline Peter Rathgeb

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  • Posts: 11
Re: Byzantines for Manzikert?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2021, 03:27:14 PM »
Thanks for sharing, Atheling, these are very beautiful vignettes!

Offline armchairgeneral

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Re: Byzantines for Manzikert?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2021, 03:28:30 PM »
In case you weren't aware Drabant Miniatures (available through Old Glory) do a nice and growing range for this period

http://www.oldgloryuk.com/28mm-dark-ages-range/53/224/536/554

Also Gripping Beast

https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/Thematic_Byzantines--category--50.html

Offline Atheling

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Re: Byzantines for Manzikert?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2021, 08:05:41 PM »
Thanks for sharing, Atheling, these are very beautiful vignettes!

No probs. Happy to help out. :)

In case you weren't aware Drabant Miniatures (available through Old Glory) do a nice and growing range for this period

http://www.oldgloryuk.com/28mm-dark-ages-range/53/224/536/554

Also Gripping Beast

https://www.grippingbeast.co.uk/Thematic_Byzantines--category--50.html

Both excellent ranges. Don't forget the Crusader miniatures range too:
https://www.crusaderminiatures.com/list.php?cat=4&sub=9&page=1

 

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