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Author Topic: M60A2 question  (Read 986 times)

Offline frank xerox

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 403
M60A2 question
« on: July 01, 2021, 12:31:23 PM »
Hi Folks
Does anyone know how M60A2 units would have been used in action - cross attached to A1 units or as discrete battalions on their own?

Well, those that made it out of base at least.

Offline frank xerox

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 403
Re: M60A2 question
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2021, 03:14:24 PM »
Tricky one isn’t it?
It would make sense in my mind to cross attach especially given how fragile the gun/launcher was supposed to be, but I can’t find anything to confirm one way or the other

Offline commissarmoody

  • Galactic Brain
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Re: M60A2 question
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2021, 08:41:48 AM »
From my experience, you would not mix units. Think the lowest number might be one company in a battalion might get caught mid change over. But you wouldn't have mixed platoons or squads from the get go. Now if your playing Twilight 2k then do what you like.  :D
"Peace" is that brief, glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading.

- Anonymous

Offline frank xerox

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 403
Re: M60A2 question
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2021, 08:52:25 AM »
Thanks Commisar, I was thinking about a company of A2 with 2 of A1s kind of thing. Maybe they just didn’t think about it at the time.
You’re right though - my game I can do whatever the hell I like!
Cheers

Offline sultanbev

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 61
Re: M60A2 question
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2021, 01:48:35 PM »
There was a big discussion on Tanknet by former operators on this, and it turns out each brigade had differing usages. Also reported on the GHQ forum in a thread entitled
"Update to M60A2 USAREUR deployment" March 28th 2019

One option was to swap a complete M60A2 company with a M60A1 company, so one battalion had:
2x M60A2 Companies, 1 M60A1 Company, Bttn HQ in M60A2
and two battalions each had 1x M60A2 Company, 2 M60A1 Companies, Bttn HQ in M60A1

In addition or alternatively, M60A2 platoons were cross attached with Mech companies in the same way M60A1 tank platoons were. It seems from the notes below that mixed companies consisting of 1 M60A2 platoon, 2 M60A1 platoons, 1 M113 Mech platoon were also possible.

Ah, have found the notes I made back in 2019, quoted from Tanknet forum:
"UPDATED 2019
Here is the list of M60A2-equipped units that resulted:


V Corps-

5th Battalion, 68th Armor, 8th ID (54 A2s)
1st Battalion, 32nd Armor, 3rd AD (54 A2s)
3rd Battalion, 33rd Armor, 3rd AD (54 A2s)

VII Corps-

3rd ID
1st Battalion, 64th Armor (17 A2s)
2nd Battalion, 64th Armor (37 A2s)
3rd Battalion, 64th Armor (37 A2s)
4th Battalion, 64th Armor (17 A2s)

1st AD
1st Battalion, 37th Armor (54 A2s)

CONUS:
1st Battalion, 67th Armor, 2nd AD, III Corps, Fort Hood (54 A2s)

2nd Squadron, 6th Armored Cavalry, Fort Knox (17 A2s)

Robert Cameron, Ph.D.
AR BR historian


M60A2 issue
1/32 ARM, 3AD (up to 1979)
3/33 ARM, 3ADn (up to 1980)
ARM, 1AD (should have had another M60A2 bttn but didn’t)
1/33rd ARM 3 AD (not M60A2 then?)

Your info is almost spot on except 1/33 Armor was in 3AD not 3ID. The two 3AD units were 1/32 and 3/33, one each in KG and Friedburg since Gelnhausen only had one tank Bn. 1/32 got rid of theirs in 1979 and 3/33 I think got rid of theirs in 1980.

Charles
1/67 AR 2AD CONUS
1-66AR/2AD was M60A1 pure. We and 1-67AR/2AD (M60A2) and 1-50 IN(Mech)/2AD were all a part of a rapid deployment (to the Middle East) brigade (the 1st Tiger Brigade) while the rest of 2AD was focused on Europe in the middle to late 1970s. We had desert camo on our vehicles (sand, tan, etc.) while the rest of the 2nd Armored Division had green-based Europeon camo. Cross attachment of 1-M60A1 unit, 1-M60A2 unit and 1-Mech IN unit was made inside the Brigade all the way down to Company/Platoon level.

Co. C, 1st Bn. 1st Training Brigade was the enlisted OSUT unit at Ft Knox and
Co. H, 2nd Sqdn, 6th Cav. was the AOB unit at Knox with M60A2.
Supposed to be 2 per Armoured Division, 1 per Mech Division

A little digging around and I've found an account that says at least one of the BNs in Schwienfurt (2/64 or 3/64) transitioned to M60A2s in 1976. The claimaint states that 3ID had two M60A2 BNs, and I've seen another that suggests 1/64 was the other BN. Lastly, it appears that 3ID parceled out their M60A2s between the four tank BNs.

So, that gives us 1/64, 2/64, 3/64, and 4/64 all with some M60A2s (2 BNs worth), 3AD with two BNs, and one each to 8ID and 1AD. For a grand total of 6 BNs fielded.

I think 8th ID parcelled out their A2's as well. IIRC the D Company was the A2 unit in the BNs. It makes a lot more sense than having a full A2 BN.
Over on Starry's thread he intimates that there were four battalions in Europe and 1/67 at Ft Hood. I don't think 2AD forward (Bde 75) had any and I know 1ID didn't have any, and we have 1AD and 3AD locked up soooooo, did 8th ID or 3ID have any?

8th ID for sure, and I believe it was mixed at the company level.
Lots of discussion at the Combat Developments level on mixed platoons, mixed companies, etc. Logistics and repair parts supply won out and there was a TOE for the dedicated M60?A2 battalions. Divisions which owned them might have mixed them as they saw fit, but the army solution was for M60A2 pure battalions. I think there were six battalions in Germany and two or three in CONUS. Wade Bartells and I worked out the distribution once over on the old Tanker's Forum, but that was over ten years ago and I am getting old.


Just to add my 2c to this discussion. 1/32 (A2's) in 1976-79 had the same organization as 3/32 (A1's) but there was a great deal of cross attaching platoons and companies to try to get the right mix of vehicles based on the terrain in the anticipated battle area.

”I was platoon leader of 1st platoon C-3/32 from late 76 to late 77 and was attached to Team B 1/32 for action in the Fulda gap. 3d Bde 3AD was part of the covering force, our battle positions were right up on the border north of Fulda. B 1/32 had only one platoon of A2's, 2 platoons of A1's (mine and 3rd platoon of C 3/32) and a platoon of grunts from 1/36. The plan was to place the A2's in a rather distant overwatch position where they could benefit from the range of the missiles. The infantry were in and around a small town in a valley and the A1's were hull down on a ridge line overlooking the valley. Our (A1) maximum firing range would have been between 2km and 3km. I visited the location a few years ago and it looked pretty good from the former East German side, but it was raining and very muddy so I didn't get to see as much as I would have liked.

Not much thought was given on how to integrate the diverse equipment after we fell back to our next position, I don't think we were expected to have much equipment left after the first hour or so.

Also, 1/32 got the new A3's before we did in 1979. I was S4 by then so I never got to TC an A3”

dead link page 104ish, suggests that while there were tank sets for six battalions in Germany, only three were fielded. 1/33AR 3ID, 1/32 AR 3AD, and 1/37 AR 1AD. And of course 1/67 AR 2AD @ Ft Hood.

I'm pretty sure 3-68AR in Mannheim had some.
There was a unit in Kirchgons with some, as was a unit in Friedberg.

From what I understand they were just plain unreliable and overcomplicated.
Were they a 1-for-1 replacement for the M60A1s or were companies/platoons mixed?

1/32 was all A2's and I'm pretty sure they had the exact same tanks per unit as 3/32, which had A1's.
The platoons were mixed at the company team level, trying to put the A2's where they could benefit from their long ranged missiles and the A1's where they could benefit from their higher rate of fire. Of course this would have primarily been affective for the first day of the Soviet attack, but being in the covering force, we didnt think too much past the first day."


« Last Edit: July 02, 2021, 01:51:13 PM by sultanbev »

Offline commissarmoody

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 8669
    • Moodys Adventures
Re: M60A2 question
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2021, 11:32:52 PM »
That's crazy and all over the place. Love it.

Offline frank xerox

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 403
Re: M60A2 question
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2021, 08:34:48 AM »
Thanks big time Sultanbev, that is brilliant - it's fifth Corp and 3rd armoured I'm especially interested in. I'm getting close to doing the old SPI game on the table top.
Huge thanks for taking the time!

Offline carlos marighela

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 10763
  • Flamenguista até morrer.
Re: M60A2 question
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2021, 09:43:26 AM »
It makes sense for them to be cross attached. They were, after all, meant to provide the long range AT punch, beyond that of the 105mm. Much in the same way that M103s were supposed to be the long range counterpart to the M48 in the ‘50s and early ‘60s and as the Conqueror was to Centurion.
Em dezembro de '81
Botou os ingleses na roda
3 a 0 no Liverpool
Ficou marcado na história
E no Rio năo tem outro igual
Só o Flamengo é campeăo mundial
E agora seu povo
Pede o mundo de novo

Offline sultanbev

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 61
Re: M60A2 question
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2021, 10:45:18 AM »
That's crazy and all over the place. Love it.

That's what as a researcher I'd call raw data, unprocessed for wargaming consumption :) But I think we can get the ghist of it.

Thanks big time Sultanbev, that is brilliant - it's fifth Corp and 3rd armoured I'm especially interested in. I'm getting close to doing the old SPI game on the table top.
Huge thanks for taking the time!

Thanks, I have an M60A2 company in my 6mm collection, I do have a peculier affection for wargaming with the tank, and it's monster HEAT round is quite effective when you're below the effective missile range. A company of 17 of these in defence versus a battalion of 31x T-62 is a good game I reckon.

 

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