Seeking advice on the late 16th century

[Mr.J]

Hi all

I’m about to be vague and demonstrate a massive lack of knowledge of this period but…

I’m interested in buying some minis from this period - specifically I’m looking at the Foundry Seadogs as they are brilliant figures, however I’m keen to keep a European setting, I would be open to a North American setting too. Possibly using Pikeman's Lament but I’m open to suggestions.

I’ve looked into Border Reivers, 80YW but am not sure really what they would work best for. I’ve also been looking at TAGs various ranges to see if I can bolster these figures and create bigger forces by mixing manufacturers. I’m a huge fan of their Dutch minis and really like the Tudor and Valois stuff too so wondered if, historically, there is a conflict they could be used in, or what my options are for a range which is period correct to match the Foundry ones?

Any thoughts or guidance on this would be welcome. Pointers on areas of reading would be great also.

Extra points for inspirational photos and images.

[Atheling]

TAG do both Border Reivers and Dutch for the 80YW.

For rules, probably the best out there were the free Border Reiver rules (that was the name of said rules) [published in Wargames Illustrated a many years ago.

I'm pretty sure that if you google "Border Reivers free wargames rules Wargames illustrated" you might well find a copy floating out there.

I have got the issue but to dig it out for you would take days as all my WI are hard copies and the pile is huge!

[has.been]

To get you started I would suggest that you start at
the Skirmish level. For a simple fun set of rules I
think Fistful of Lead, Pikeman's Lament or DonnyBrook.
All require only a few figures to get started.
You could base the early painted figures individually
on coins/disks/washers, then when you have more
buy some Sabot bases (Warbases & others).

If I am starting a new period, the spark that gets me
interested is NOT masses of research (that can come later)
but often a:-Film, Historical fiction, even a painting or song.

[v_lazy_dragon]

The foundry sea dogs are cracking figures

So they are designed for marauding around the Caribbean, fighting the Spanish) - hence the maroons - in the Elizabethan period (1560's-1600ish). As they are in a nice mix of nautical and land wear they could also be used for Dutch Sea dogs in the early years of the 80 years war; fighting the Irish in the 9 years war, Border Rivers and early north American stuff like James town 1607. Not to mention fictionalized versions of the Spanish Armada, etc. Call them Dutch or Portuguese and you can go to South America, West Africa or even Japan. 3 Musketeers and Guy Fawkes are also in that time frame/ball park.

The 'tudor' caps are a bit too early for the Thirty years war, (or much into the 1600s in general) but swap them for wide brimmed hats (Warlord, TAG) and they should be fine. Likewise, the doublet was commonly around until the 1630s or so, so many TYW and even some ECW figures can be back dated.

If you want to be a massive nerd, many rules fall down on fire arms. In the Elizabethan period there were a few different clases of 'gonne': The Caliver (a lightish, hand-held, musket of around 20 gauge); the Musket was a heavier caliber weapon that was supported with a rest and was 10-12 gauge. These eventually converged to give the 'bastard musket' - lighter calibre than the original musket; slightly heavier than the caliver. Most rules don't distinguish this, and most players don't care .
Pikeman's Lament has potential, and there is a hybrid system mixing in units from Lion Rampant for billmen/archers.
I use Donnybrook for a fractionally smaller game. There is also a conversion for the GW LOTR SBG game floating around the internet. Osprey's En Garde could also work for more skirmished sized games.

TAG's Dutch are absolutely perfect. The English are a bit early (very 1540s) but will mix better than the Valois as they are a bit plainer. (I use a few Tudor English mixed in, often with greying hair/beards to excuse their older fashions). Their border Reivers work particularly well.  The TYW Germans and early Finns work well enough, although a few figures are a little smaller. The Sturat English I personally find just too small.

Col Bills/ D'Arlo border Reivers match well; in both time span and size
Thistle and Rose have the old Vendel border Reivers, and they match well too.
The forth coming Flint and Feather Europeans work well (more 1620's, but tmix them in and they'll be fine); as do the native Americans.
Eureka have their 16th C Portugese who also fit perfectly - for both a the Caribbean or elsewhere.
The Hoka Hey (Ex Monolith) border reivers just about mix with the Seadogs, but are too big/.stylized to mix with any of the above
some of the Warlord ECW plastics and be mixed in; as can some of the metal characters.

For inspirational photos, try my reenactment group - the Taunton Garrison; we do Elizabethan

[Emir of Askaristan]

VLD has done an excellent summary.

In addition there are battles and skirmishes in east and central Scotland between Mary of Guise with French troops against Scots rebels with English support and again later in the Marian Civil war between supporters of Mary Queen of Scots and various other lowland factions, (most of those involved were not highlanders despite the use of the word "clan" to describe the families backing one side or the other such as the Gordons, Forbes and Leslie)

There is the 1565 Siege of Malta, which drew in many contingents, not just the knights and English involvement in the early Dutch revolt or a fictional Armada landing would give you lots of scope.

[v_lazy_dragon]

VLD has done an excellent summary.

Thanks
Speaking of the siege of Malta; the Warlord Wars of Religon figures are design for just that, so are a little earlier than the sea dogs, but can work. Figures are a bit shorter but not too bad.

The Old Glory Wars of Religion work very well, and are definitely one of OGs better ranges.

The Casting room miniatures Elizabethans are in many cases the same figures/simple conversions and so mix perfectly in height; although many are a little gawky

To try and summarize my recommendations:

Pushing the figures earlier:
Warlord wars of Religion
TAG Tudors + Valois

Keeping in the Elizabethan Groove:
TAG Tudor border reivers
TAG Dutch
Any border reviers
Eureka Portugese
Casting Room Tudors
Old Glory Wars of Religon

Pushing into the 1600s (start swapping those tudor caps):
Bohemia Miniatures 30 years war (also forgot these!)
Possibly Steve Barber 30 years war
Selected Warlord ECW figures
Brigade Games swashbucklers
Most of the bordrer reviers
Most of the TAG dutch
Flint and Feather Europeans

[Friends of General Haig]

The is a great list VLD - would make a useful sticky note for that end of / beginning of period. 

[Patrice]

The War of Religion in Brittany (also called "La guerre de la Ligue") 1588-1598 is a fascinating subject; especially as after the first year the main conflict there was not Catholics vs Protestants, but Royalists (sometimes with English support) vs extreme Catholics (La Ligue) who had strong Spanish support.

[Mr.J]

Thanks so much guys, very insightful. This gives me an excellent place to jump off from.

[traveller]

Great info on the availability of figures in this thread. If you want a conflict beside the main ones, let me offer you the Nordic Seven Years War 1563-1570. Fighting in todays Sweden, Norway and the Baltics involving Swedes, Danes, Norwegians,  German and Scottish mercenaries, Polish and Baltic forces:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Seven_Years%27_War

[Mr.J]

Thanks Traveller. Are there any good sites or books in English that you would recommend? I must admit this conflict in particular has piqued my interest.

[Metternich]

If you remain interested in the Border Reivers, the best book I can recommend is The Steel Bonnets, by George MacDonald Fraser. Great material in there for skirmishes and for skirmish-campaigns (essentially family feuds).  Many of the Foundry Sea Dogs can do admirable double-duty as Border Reivers (as can many of the Eureka figures, which mix quite well with the Sea Dogs, both size-wise and stylistically). As for rules, Osprey's En Garde skirmish rules are designed for the 16th - 17th centuries and give a good game.   

[Blackwolf]

Robert Low has also written some rather good Border Reiver novels

[Emir of Askaristan]

Not a brilliant photo, but it shows D'arlo and Hoka Hey together

[levied troop]

Extra points for inspirational photos and images.

Not too sure about inspirational but I’ll try for the extra points:

https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=4621df77d0113630c14ef5dbaef8bdd4&topic=93251.0

Figures are Sea Dogs, Casting Room, Hoka Hey, TAG and a couple of Foundry Elizabethans (really a bit too small to mix easily).