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Author Topic: Down with Die Roll Modifiers! A Modest Proposal  (Read 2027 times)

Offline Storm Wolf

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Re: Down with Die Roll Modifiers! A Modest Proposal
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2021, 06:29:03 AM »
And I should have added above that a natural roll of a one was always a miss or a fail whatever the modifiers. :( ;) :D

Glen
Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane.

Online jon_1066

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Re: Down with Die Roll Modifiers! A Modest Proposal
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2021, 08:12:35 AM »
@ Billchuck:

Okay, well in your example, I would do just one sum: target of rolling 5+ , add +2 hit bonus, equals new target of rolling 3+. I then roll all the dice together, and remove any that are 1s or 2s. I don't roll all the dice, and then do the +2 modifier for each dice one-by-one... That would be rather odd...?  :?

So in the context of either modifying the target number, or modifying the dice rolls, I still only do one really basic sum either way.

I guess this is why many people (and I've seen this topic has come up in the past) struggle to see why this is an issue?

You are making the OPs point for him.  You read the rules, work out the modifiers then invert them mathematically and apply them to the target score.  ie you do exactly what the OP is requesting be made explicit in the rules.  Obviously you have been playing these games for years so you do this intuitively without even thinking about it.

If you imagine a rule set has to be absorbed by brand new players and old hands making the change explicit in the rules makes sense.  Modifiers in the rules should be applied to the target and not the dice roll to mirror what players actually do.

Offline Dr DeAth

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Re: Down with Die Roll Modifiers! A Modest Proposal
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2021, 09:05:39 AM »
If ever there was a 'First World Problem', this is it.  lol lol
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Online jon_1066

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Re: Down with Die Roll Modifiers! A Modest Proposal
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2021, 10:19:19 AM »
If ever there was a 'First World Problem', this is it.  lol lol

?

Clearly all of miniature modelling, painting, playing, etc are utterly irrelevant to someone fighting for survival in Haiti.  Should we all just abandon all threads on here because of it?  It is a perfectly legitimate discussion about how modifiers are expressed in miniature rulesets. It's no less valid than what colour paint is most accurate to match German Uniforms of WWII or how best to highlight a space elf dreadnaught.

Offline Silent Invader

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Re: Down with Die Roll Modifiers! A Modest Proposal
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2021, 10:44:52 AM »
?

Clearly all of miniature modelling, painting, playing, etc are utterly irrelevant to someone fighting for survival in Haiti.  Should we all just abandon all threads on here because of it?  It is a perfectly legitimate discussion about how modifiers are expressed in miniature rulesets. It's no less valid than what colour paint is most accurate to match German Uniforms of WWII or how best to highlight a space elf dreadnaught.

I read it as a tongue-in-cheek reply to this ….

Quote
Now to get my “Down with DRMs” sign and picket outside game publishers, claiming it is all a massive conspiracy…

Some people take these things very seriously (judging by the energy and time expended in the word count) and others not so much.

Personally, I think the Rampant rules get it about right.
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(2023 = 151; 2022 = 204; 2021 = 123; 2020 = ???)

Offline Dr DeAth

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Re: Down with Die Roll Modifiers! A Modest Proposal
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2021, 10:58:19 AM »
Clearly all of miniature modelling, painting, playing, etc are utterly irrelevant to someone fighting for survival in Haiti.  Should we all just abandon all threads on here because of it?

I'm not suggesting that.

It is a perfectly legitimate discussion about how modifiers are expressed in miniature rulesets.

I didn't say it wasn't.

It's no less valid than what colour paint is most accurate to match German Uniforms of WWII or how best to highlight a space elf dreadnaught.

I think it's less useful discussing whether it makes a difference to add or subtract numbers from a target score or from the dice you're rolling to achieve the target score  - essentially the same thing in practice, than it is to offer modelling/painting advice on the LAF. There are plenty of forums for academic discussions, what made the LAF stand out among other forums was its modelling/painting content.

As I think has already been mentioned on the thread you started on another forum about this - I cannot see what you are trying to achieve by this change?


It would be a shame to see LAF turn into anther 'talking shop' forum, especially when the discussion or content is just regurgitated from another one.



Offline N.C.S.E

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Re: Down with Die Roll Modifiers! A Modest Proposal
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2021, 04:07:17 PM »
I actually am in agreement with the OP. I've found die roll modifiers to be one of the heavier aspects of many games that detracts from the fun and makes the rules opaque to the newbie or casual player. Having just been excitedly moving their pieces around the table, they now find the most exciting moment of the game (contact) to be weighted down by often endless and quite arcane pluses and minuses.
Certainly the fellow running the game should do everything they can to just do it all in their head and just give a straight: "roll this or more" but still.

I wish I could offer a solution and I think changing what type of dice you roll goes a long way, but as many games handle it now, they cannot compete what boardgames and board wargames can offer. Their mechanisms are capable of offering the same results as dice without the bureaucracy. There's no shortage of games for those who enjoy the style, if they enjoy it no one's stopping them. But I agree that there should be a push to seek out new mechanics that simplify the bureaucracy without removing the nitty-gritty of combat. A big ask unfortunately.

Offline Charlie_

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Re: Down with Die Roll Modifiers! A Modest Proposal
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2021, 08:27:45 PM »
Though like others I might be a bit confused about the original poster's problem, I do find the discussion interesting.
I am constantly tweaking my own homebrew rules, and I want them to be clear and make sense to those new to wargaming. Streamlining and cutting the fat from a lot of things.
Originally I had units have a 'discipline' rating, all sorts of tests were taken on a 2D6, any number above the discipline rating was a failure. Obviously the same as in most GW games.
But it occured to me that almost all units would be having the same discipline rating - 7. There is the possibility to have different ratings, probably just 6 and 8, but probably won't occur much. So almost all these tests are pass on 2-7 and fail on 8-12. I like the idea of rolling high always being good, so inverted this - now all tests are passed on 7+. Modifiers may apply, in the place of having different discipline ratings - and here I was wondering what would make the most sense to new players. If there is a simple +1 modifier (beneficial), is it easier to say to my new players "this now means you need to roll 6+"... or "roll the dice and subtract 1, if the result is 7 or more you have passed."  Or even.... "You need 7+ to pass, but if you roll a 6 this gets bumped up to a 7". Probably not the latter....

Modifiers in the rules should be applied to the target and not the dice roll to mirror what players actually do.

You're probably right.

Offline Storm Wolf

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Re: Down with Die Roll Modifiers! A Modest Proposal
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2021, 08:38:39 PM »
I don`t have an axe to grind or a dog in this fight (in a manner of speaking of course :))

But I have a problem with the Black Ops rules for this, they reversed the way modifiers are applied and it just messes with my head. So much so that I had to reverse them to play

Talk about reverse engineering and damn my 30+ year wargame experience brain lol

I hope you find a way of working it, that makes sense to you, at the end of the day thats all that matters

Glen
« Last Edit: September 28, 2021, 04:26:13 PM by Storm Wolf »

Offline Antonio J Carrasco

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Re: Down with Die Roll Modifiers! A Modest Proposal
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2021, 06:35:16 AM »
I have not problem with DRMs as long as they are kept within reason, are logical, and provide a result. My problem is when I see lists of DRMs longer than the rules themselves, or that try to introduce within the combat resolution process situations that were so exceptional that are statistically irrelevant, or that do not accomplish anything.


Offline aliensurfer

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Re: Down with Die Roll Modifiers! A Modest Proposal
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2021, 09:22:25 PM »
Have a set of rules for Napoleonics my late father and I used, all casualties were worked out using charts (quickly and well I might add) and dice were only for morale. It was a very effective set of rules, I'll have to try and find it now and get the name.

 

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