Scottish Infantry at Lewes

[Unlucky General]

I suspect one of your issues will be how you make your Scottish 'spear' different from the rest of the royal army?

I'd suggest no or next to no kettle helmets and a good sprinkling of plaid but other than that, everything said so far is pretty much spot on. This discussion has shamed me ... I should get back to my own Lewes project.

Please let us know how you get on.

[Iain R]

Or rather not. That's been the whole point of this discussion, there would have been little to no visible difference between tge troop types.

[Atheling]

Or rather not. That's been the whole point of this discussion, there would have been little to no visible difference between the troop types.

100%. That's what both Iain and I (and the others ) have been trying to say. There would be no discernible difference. No plaids in any obvious numbers and certainly nothing resembling the Plaid of such awful movies. They were to come much later. Centuries later in fact.

The only difference would have been in the colour of cloth given out for liveries; knightly heraldry. Early on such liveries would be handed out to some of the housholdthe soldiery on both sides out but later coats might be given already stitched together.

For example, Edward of Woodstock (later known as The Black Prince) famously gave out yards of green and white cloth to his Welsh retainers for the Crecy Campaign.

[bluewillow]

I will need to check my notes but some Scottish families did hand out cloth for retainers. As for weapons spears, axe, a few bows and leaders with good swords , I primarily mostly portrayed them in gambersons, with a few leaders in mail.


 I painted a few units for my Lewes Project, but alas it has stalled also when I moved to France, although I have around 20 bases complete, I still need to paint 20 odd bases of cavalry (120 cav). I think I will add them to the completion list for next year as I have completed the heraldry document now.

cheers
Matt

[Atheling]

heraldry document now.

Do tell old bean. In fact please spill the beans! 

[bluewillow]

I will publish on our website as a PDF for sale in November when I also launch the webshop.

cheers
Matt

[Unlucky General]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to differ from some of the certainty expressed on this thread.

Plaid fabrics in the Celtic cultures throughout the British isles is as old as recorded history. Please note I'm not referring to the more modern 'tartan' classifications. It's just how people wove. If you wish to ignore that in how you want to depict your models and armies, then that's your prerogative.

'Scotish' armies were levied differently in this period and a lot of military organisation is dependent upon socio-economic and political factors. The Scots were different from the English - distinct even.

I'm not disputing similarities in basic functions between groups of common infantry but I suspect that the aforementioned implication or insistence that Scots and English soldiery was indistinguishable is an opinion and one that, whilst clearly shared, is not evidence based.

I understand that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but I've never seen depicted Scots soldiers of that time (1260s) wearing kettle helms for example. Nor is it referred to in written sources - to my knowledge. I'm always ready to accept correction.

Positions taken on this subject on this thread feel to me like some people are trying to over-compensate in a reactionary response to pop-culture. I think it's swinging the position too far the other way.

I 'think' and suggest the distinction would have been apparent between Scots and English foot: subtle but nevertheless apparent. In an attempt to assist the original enquiry, I'll stand by my original suggestions if you are looking for ways of depicting those differences in your Lewes army for the Scots. I know my time machine is broken at the moment and I'm guessing everyone else's is also. If you did chose to go down a similar path, I'm yet to be convinced you would inaccurate or wrong.

Good luck with it, whatever you decide.

[Atheling]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to differ from some of the certainty expressed on this thread.

Plaid fabrics in the Celtic cultures throughout the British isles is as old as recorded history. Please note I'm not referring to the more modern 'tartan' classifications. It's just how people wove. If you wish to ignore that in how you want to depict your models and armies, then that's your prerogative.

First of all, to what geographical area do you assign the wearing of plaid? I think most of us know you are not referring to Tartan, pretty much a Victorian invention.

Assuming plaid was as ubiquitous as you suggest, what would be the difference between a soldier from Northumbria and one from the Lowlands Scotland? Would the wearing of plaid suddenly end at the border, which was very much in flux for most of the history? Surely not.

'Scotish' armies were levied differently in this period and a lot of military organisation is dependent upon socio-economic and political factors. The Scots were different from the English - distinct even.

How so? In what way were they levied differently? What made them so distinct from one another?

I'm not disputing similarities in basic functions between groups of common infantry but I suspect that the aforementioned implication or insistence that Scots and English soldiery was indistinguishable is an opinion and one that, whilst clearly shared, is not evidence based.

Going back to a Slingshot many years ago, Dr Chris Brown discussed this at length and comes to a very different conclusion. Do you mind if I ask you what sources you are referring to please?

Positions taken on this subject on this thread feel to me like some people are trying to over-compensate in a reactionary response to pop-culture. I think it's swinging the position too far the other way.

Sorry, but to suggest that those of us who are arguing that there was little difference equipment wise between the Scots and English at the time are not posturing some kind of pop culture (I think you might have been insinuating PC culture?)

[Iain R]

Atheling has largely summed up everything I would reply with, more eloquently than I probably could... 

I don't dispute there would be some difference, but I would argue that these would largely be far too subtle to distinguish at the scale of a 28mm wargame. Particularly if we're considering a common-or-garden lowland infantryman from what we now consider the central belt, vs. his English counterpart. Although I would be interested to know your reasoning on the kettle hat point in particular...

I think an interesting modern analogy (which will probably be readily viewable on TV over the next couple of weeks) would be to consider large groups of Scottish and English police officers next to each other; from a distance they look pretty much the same, because they are all equipped to do the same job, albeit from different sources- it's only once you look really closely you notice slight differences in the designs of hi-viz jacket, a couple of different types of belt kit, or ways the same stuff is carried, slightly different cap styles, etc, but outwardly all equipped the same, and indistinguishable from a distance. There will be outliers, the odd cop might be clinging to an old long yellow coat, or someone wearing a sleeveless yellow vest over a black jacket- these are your guys in the mediaeval host who have a plaid cloak over their shoulders, or a notably different (either older or really modern and fancy) helmet, or similar.

Otherwise, I think I'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree with The Unlucky General, here. Particularly the inference that I'm just making stuff up as a reaction to that film. Let's not pick that fight.

All the best.

[rampantlion]

Thanks everyone for the great conversation.  I, as a wargamer, want my Scots to stand out from my English.  I am thinking that the only way to do it is with some banners representing their Scottish lords that brought them to the field.  Just for fun I might still mix in the odd spearman with some plaid cloak or something of the sort. 

Allen

[Atheling]

Thanks everyone for the great conversation.  I, as a wargamer, want my Scots to stand out from my English.  I am thinking that the only way to do it is with some banners representing their Scottish lords that brought them to the field.  Just for fun I might still mix in the odd spearman with some plaid cloak or something of the sort. 

Allen

After much discussion and at the end of the day, they are your miniatures and you can do as  you please with them. Heraldic Banners are a great idea and will, to a certain educated eye, make them stand out as Scots.

[Phillius]

Interesting discussion indeed. I have just taken delivery of the master molds for our first Scots of this period (Triguard Miniatures) and these are based upon primarily re-enactor resources. From what I have seen, and I am no expert, there was similarity between the Scots and the English, any border is artificial after all.
We will be producing reasonably well equipped front rankers, primarily in padded gambeson and mail, supported by foot knights. For those less well equipped we will be recommending some of our Welsh figures, who look a lot like some of the less well equipped I have seen in re-enactor pictures.

[Atheling]

Interesting discussion indeed. I have just taken delivery of the master molds for our first Scots of this period (Triguard Miniatures) and these are based upon primarily re-enactor resources. From what I have seen, and I am no expert, there was similarity between the Scots and the English, any border is artificial after all.
We will be producing reasonably well equipped front rankers, primarily in padded gambeson and mail, supported by foot knights. For those less well equipped we will be recommending some of our Welsh figures, who look a lot like some of the less well equipped I have seen in re-enactor pictures.

I'm pleased that you have enjoyed the discussion so far. You are spot on about the borders being artificial which has been the crux of my "argument" all along.

It's is excellent to hear a new company is on the scene. The more the merrier!

What scale are you mini's? Do you have am link to a website/Facebook gage as of yet please?

Are the Welsh available now?

[Blackwolf]

  Just Google Triguard Miniatures,that’s what I did
Very nice they are too!

[Phillius]

I suppose I should have mentioned that shouldn't I!

40mm and www.triguardminiatures.com

Used to be Vanguard Men-at-arms sold by the Miniature Service Centre.

Initial pictures of the new Scots will be up soon.