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Author Topic: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)  (Read 1865 times)

Offline monkeylite

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Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2021, 10:58:58 AM »

iyswim?

That sounds good for the frontage as all  my units tend to be on 40mm wide bases, three to a unit (but obviously these can be expanded to suit taste/rules)

The Cavalry would look really odd 100mm wide. I could only manage 80mm which would destroy the aesthetic that I have carefully put together for each unit- these are 120mm wide and just wouldn't have the same visual impact with a lesser frontage- the rules I'm looking for are for a display game:


That's great but with a frontage of what would be 80mm for Cavalry it is just not going to work for me.

If there aren't many deep units (mostly infantry and classical Cataphracts right?) it's looking very much like these rules aren't going to work for Belisarius' Wars/Early Byzantine Wars. Bummer  :'(

There are always issues with points in any system. As it's for a display game that wouldn't really come into it anyway. The game will be lopsided in terms of troops etc
iyswim = If you see what I mean.

Sorry, I misread your post, I thought you were saying your cavalry bases were 50mm wide, so I was thinking that 100mm would work, ie two bases. If they're 40mm wide then use three bases for 120mm.

Again, it was just a suggestion. S&S is quite forgiving for frontages coz although it stipulates the same frontages in the rules, the way the units conform leaves plenty of wiggle room.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2021, 11:02:14 AM by monkeylite »

Offline Atheling

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Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2021, 12:23:43 PM »
iyswim = If you see what I mean.

Sorry, I misread your post, I thought you were saying your cavalry bases were 50mm wide, so I was thinking that 100mm would work, ie two bases. If they're 40mm wide then use three bases for 120mm.

Again, it was just a suggestion. S&S is quite forgiving for frontages coz although it stipulates the same frontages in the rules, the way the units conform leaves plenty of wiggle room.

No worries.

A few guys from my club are going to give me a game when I can safely return that is.

I'll see how it goes from there.

Offline pallard

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Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2021, 05:20:00 PM »
Sword and spear might be better than I thought after all, but I too like to stick to one rule per period ( with a lot of difficulties...).
Comitatus does advocate for specific number of miniatures per type of troops for separate stands, but in no way is it imperative. You just have to respect a common scale for both armies.
Philippe

Offline Atheling

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Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2021, 06:49:04 PM »
Sword and spear might be better than I thought after all, but I too like to stick to one rule per period ( with a lot of difficulties...).
Comitatus does advocate for specific number of miniatures per type of troops for separate stands, but in no way is it imperative. You just have to respect a common scale for both armies.
Philippe

I used to have a copy on my old laptop, which I didn't actually get around to reading, but I'm not really willing to pay for copy twice.

Otherwise I would consider it.


Offline mellis1644

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Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2021, 02:57:32 PM »
Yeah, we had a phase of tournaments with 15mm fantasy, with just creating whatever armies you wanted without referencing the fantasy army lists, and even though more dice means more options, you could see that the armies were getting smaller and smaller but more effective. I teased one opponent because he turned up with an entire Orc army of discipline 3, but he got revenge when I decided my eagles were armoured.

I found there was/is an optimum style of army in S&S. Have a core/majority of very tough, skilled, armored fighting units and then a some die generating but rarely using them troops in a 'cheering section'. The later ensured that all the core army got to move and do what they want and the cheering section sat at the back as a target and die generators

For display games where you set both sides you can avoid that and good lists can also avoid it but it's a temptation for people who want to win.

I like the game but in some ways it lacks the rock/paper/scissors of different troops types in some ancients games.
My painting blog is at: http://mellis1644.wordpress.com/

Offline Atheling

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Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2021, 03:05:58 PM »
I found there was/is an optimum style of army in S&S. Have a core/majority of very tough, skilled, armored fighting units and then a some die generating but rarely using them troops in a 'cheering section'. The later ensured that all the core army got to move and do what they want and the cheering section sat at the back as a target and die generators

For display games where you set both sides you can avoid that and good lists can also avoid it but it's a temptation for people who want to win.

I like the game but in some ways it lacks the rock/paper/scissors of different troops types in some ancients games.

There are a few crucial factors in my mind that we need for the game.

1/ The rules need to be able to reflect the tactics of the day, which were often quite sophisticated.

2/ The rules need to adequately reflect that supporting units in the battle line would support one another and that major breakthroughs, all of s sudden are unlikely. Swordpoint seems to do this extremely well but it quite involved when it comes to combat.

3/ The rules have to fit the units we have painted up on aesthetic grounds and not the other way around

If S&P cannot do this then it is out of the window I'm afraid. I'm not knocking the rules, but from what I've generally read in this thread, they don't seem to fit the criteria that we a re looking for.

Offline Phil Portway

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Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2021, 09:06:52 AM »
We have used S & S for about 5 demo big games now and folks that come to the game can even get to play a turn if they want.

We use stat chits on the units.

Great for demo & party games. Played a big party game at our club the other day 3 of the 4 players had never played before and picked up the basics very quickly.

Salute game in 2018 1000 points each side


Club game couple of weeks ago 1300 points per side


Salute 2019 about 1500 points per side
If it isn't enjoyable, it isn't gaming!

Offline Atheling

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Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2021, 01:14:00 PM »
We have used S & S for about 5 demo big games now and folks that come to the game can even get to play a turn if they want.

We use stat chits on the units.

Great for demo & party games. Played a big party game at our club the other day 3 of the 4 players had never played before and picked up the basics very quickly.

Interesting.... you units are more or less the same size as ours. though ours are a little deeper to accomodate the Aventine Miniatures.

Looks like, after all, it might be worth looking into in a bit more detail. Food for thought!

Would it be too much trouble if I asked you to list the size of the whole units Phil?

1/ Heavy Infantry?

2/ Light Non Skirmishing Infantry?

3/ Skirmish infantry?

4/ Heavy Cavalry?

5/ Extra Heavy Cavalry?

6/ Medium Cavalry?

7/ Light Non Skirmishing Cavalry?

8/ Skirmish Cavalry?

:)

« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 01:17:11 PM by Atheling »

Offline Phil Portway

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Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2021, 04:31:22 PM »
1/ Heavy Infantry? Footprints used - Frontage 100mm Depth 80mm or deeper for Large units Depth 100 mm (5 ranks)  All my spear armed medium foot are on he above size too!

2/ Light Non Skirmishing Infantry?  MEDIUM Shooting Foot,     Footprints used - Frontage 100mm Depth 60mm

3/ Skirmish infantry? Footprints used - Frontage 100mm Depth 40mm


4/ Heavy Cavalry? Footprints used - Frontage 125mm Depth 100mm
5/ Extra Heavy Cavalry? Footprints used - Frontage 125mm Depth 100mm (although one pal uses 3 ranks Depth 150mm)
6/ Medium Cavalry?  Footprints used - Frontage 125mm Depth 100mm
7/ Light Non Skirmishing Cavalry?  Footprints used - Frontage 125mm Depth 100mm

8/ Skirmish Cavalry?   Footprints used - Frontage 125mm Depth 50mm

General - More than 2 figures
Captain - 1 or 2 figures

 

Offline Atheling

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Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2021, 07:48:04 PM »
Many thanks for going to the trouble of answering my rather clunky question Phil.

So, not so different at all really which makes the rules worth looking at.

do you know of any video run throughs (on YouTube perhaps) that would give me an idea of how the game plays.

I don't just want to buy the rules, read them and not really have an idea of game play so cannot try them out despite two club members asking me if they wanted them to play through the rules with me  :'( (I can't get to the club at present- Covid etc)

Offline Norm

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Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2021, 09:05:08 PM »
This is a comprehensive intro

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cab1DPVPRGs

Offline Atheling

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Offline Phil Portway

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Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2021, 02:25:57 PM »
These are by Mark Lewis, the Author. 1 of 4 vids.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50DU7lylob0&t=42s
« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 02:33:43 PM by Phil Portway »

Offline Atheling

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Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2021, 04:13:47 PM »
These are by Mark Lewis, the Author. 1 of 4 vids.

Thanks Phil.  8)

Offline bluewillow

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Re: Sword and Spear Wargames Rules Unit Size Question(???)
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2021, 05:42:41 PM »

I've used Impetus a few years ago (in fact, if you take the front rank of bases on all my units they could easily be used for Impetus) and quite enjoyed the games. Still, no one I know is playing and I want to try a few new rules systems but they have to be able to take the size of the units above as it is for a display game which is why, among a few other reasons, the units were based in such a manner- for visual effect.

I was going to suggest Advanced Impetus, I find them the best rules I have used for the ancients and medieval period.

Impetus does play very differently to standard IGoUGO Rock/Paper/Scissors wargaming, the number crunching competition players do not like them because of the unpredictable resolutions and the multiple moves if you pass discipline tests etc.

perhaps train up some locals who would love to play with you superb miniatures?

cheers
Matt
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Wargame in the afternoon"™
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