A small detail about the siberian uniform during the russian civil war

[Kourtchatovium104]

Thank you all ! I was suspecting something like that for my photo but I’m glad to have wise confirmation.

In the photo below, which is supposed to be in Iekaterinburg in 1919 (I’m cautious now!), we see soldiers on the right wearing what is looking like the red and black chevrons of the shock units. But if it is right, have they something like the specific equipment of the 1917 ones ? I’m thinking  of the Adrian helmet to convert some minis. Or maybe the word shock only refers to their courage or fighting spirit at this time...

[cuprum]

Steel helmets on the Eastern Front were not widely used, which is natural - since before the revolution they were in the troops at the front in the western part of Russia. As far as I can tell, they got to the East mainly with the Czechoslovak corps. Moreover, these were not Adrian's helmets, but Russian-made "Solberg" M17 helmets, differing in appearance.





In your photo, the Siberian Assault Brigade (later to become a division). This is how her outfit is reconstructed:

https://www-kolchakiya-ru.translate.goog/uniformology/sib_shock_brigade.htm?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru

By the way, I met a mention in my memoirs that one of the Red cavalry units used firefighter helmets at the front)))

[Mark Plant]

Or maybe the word shock only refers to their courage or fighting spirit at this time...

The Siberian army formed a couple of divisions in the rear in mid 1919 with names and insignia trying to instill some sense of patriotism. Hence the "shock" units.

Unlike the real shock units, formed of highly motivated veterans, they were green and unmotivated (which is why they were in the rear a year after the fighting started). They performed very poorly in the field. Apparently they were very well dressed though.

[Mike Blake]

"By the way, I met a mention in my memoirs that one of the Red cavalry units used firefighter helmets at the front)))

WOW - any ideas as to what these helmets might have looked like??

Thanks to all for a fascinating thread.

[cuprum]

It is unlikely that we will ever know for sure. Several types of helmets were produced in Russia, so what kind of cavalrymen used is unknown. But the memoirs say that a copper helmet saved the life of a soldier when struck by a saber.

Some of the varieties of Russian fireman helmets:



They were probably painted in a khaki color and all the decorations were removed.

[cuprum]

So I look at this photo of red machine gunners and think - is it a German helmet, or is it a firefighter's helmet?

[Mike Blake]

Thanks. In my 'expert' opinion it must be a fireman's helmet!!! Wonderful - I will do some from French draggon helmets without the tail - and - sorry - leave them brass!!!!

Having said that, I did some for WWI French from Britains 7th Cavalry and even in khaki covers they looked great.

[aircav]

I must say this is a really interesting thread, the first time I’ve really paid attention to the back of beyond boards.

Thanks chaps for the great read 

[zebcook]

Wikipedia id's this as a Pre-Revolution Russian Firefighter's Helmet.

[cuprum]

This is an obvious fake)))
The helmet is made very roughly, which is not typical for items made at that time. And most importantly, the cockade and the decorations on it are modern Russian ones. Cockade from the cap of a Moscow policeman, "leaves" - from the Soviet cap of a senior officer.
Wikipedia is a big trash heap)))  There is useful information there, but it gets lost in the mountains of garbage.

[FramFramson]

Hahah, cuprum with the eagle-eyes! Well spotted! 

[Kourtchatovium104]

Cuprum: the helmet of the gunner seems to me like a german one, as the Reds were in contact with Germans in the western part of Russia. It's a good idea for converting some minis, like the fire helmets.

Mark: here is a photo of the famous siberian general Pepeliaev in the middle of the first shock brigade, which confirms your comment: they were well dressed (parade or school uniforms)! Sadly, the photo had no date nor location when I found it years ago.

[cuprum]

For me, the value of a German leather helmet as a machine gunner's headgear is questionable. In the background of this photo, we can see another soldier, already clearly wearing a regular metal helmet. Although the considerations that guided this machine gunner, we will never know 
And here is another photo of the "Reds" with an interesting helmet (communications detachment of the Putivl cavalry regiment):



By the way, my memory failed me last time. The red cavalryman in his memoirs mentions a STEEL fire helmet, not a copper one. He also reports that the helmets were received at the Lysva plant in the Urals, where the helmets were produced.


In your photo, officers of the 1st Siberian Assault Cavalry Division from the 1st Siberian Assault Brigade of General Pepelyaev. Their uniform (atilla) was sewn especially for this unit:



https://www-kolchakiya-ru.translate.goog/uniformology/sib_shturm_brigade.htm?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=ru