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Author Topic: Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?  (Read 4104 times)

Offline tin shed gamer

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Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?
« on: January 17, 2022, 05:29:14 PM »
I've been slowly plodding through my lead pile and painting up some fantasy miniatures at snails rate. Simply because I've spent years painting ww1 and ww2.
Finally had enough painted to play a game.( okay I had to supplement in some Citadel Norman's to make up the numbers).
Why 3rd edition?
Because  that's one of the two fantasy rule sets I have( not including LOTR). Plus I've enough of a castle built for a siege game, and I've the siege supplement. So it seemed the logical   option.
Our original plan was to familiarise our selves with an hour long run through and move on to a quick siege run through.
But.. The first game led to a stalemate and a serious head scratching.
So I figured I'd ask for musing on an Alternative system.
I've (and still to paint) Elves, Dwarves, Chaos  and Orcs.
( possibly a small force of slann)
Plus dragons and giants.An Empire/human force ( already halfway through painting)
Each race is around 150-200 miniatures.  I've no real plans to expand beyond this size as storage will become  an issue.
So is there anything out there that'll accommodate these size forces and siege games?

Offline robh

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Re: Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2022, 06:09:14 PM »
Stick with it. 
3rd ed was "my" era Warhammer (some of my stuff resides among those pages) and was the last rank and flank iteration of the rules. Units are important and good battlefield tactics will win out. It is a well balanced game (especially using the 2nd ed Ravening Hordes army lists) with no obviously super armies. Although that said I played Dwarves back then and never managed to beat Wood Elves so I am suspicious of them.
After 3rd ed you get into the Herohammer editions where finding killer weapon/magic combos to use on ultra expensive character models wins games, not tactics.

The siege expansion was sadly not well tested and takes a bit of user input to make it work. Sieges are actually pretty dull affairs, it is an escalade or a breach assault that you want to look at gaming with castles.

Offline Elbows

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Re: Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2022, 06:12:47 PM »
I mean, if you have the miniatures...no point in "sticking" with anything, unless it's more or less directing what you buy and paint.

The new Kings of War gets some good reviews.  There are far simpler games like Lion and Dragon Rampant which could use all of those miniatures.  My buddy has been running some games based on Warwick Kinrade's Soldiers of God/Soldiers of Rome...but we simply use it for light fantasy, etc.

Who do you game with?  Have you considered writing/adjusting the rules to make you genuinely happy?  Converting or editing rules is pretty simple.  I think it would depend on what your friends play (or what they're willing to play - if you're the one hosting games with all the miniatures, etc.).  If you're going to be hosting the games, then you can relax your rules, modify them, write your own, or find the ones you think are the most fun for your players, etc.

While I don't follow the genre super closely, I don't think there are any major "huge" super popular fantasy rank-n-flank games that come to mind.

I don't know of any system with a heavily developed siege system, but that's pretty easy to fix yourself.

Once you have a big fantasy army, those miniatures can also (obviously) be put into any kind of fantasy skirmish.  Your castle can be a terrain center piece for skirmish games vs. a full on siege battle.
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Offline Cat

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Re: Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2022, 07:30:32 PM »
I've always had more of a preference for The Rules According To Ral with pencilled in fantasy and magic units (free online), and the later Chaos Wars with fantasy and magic officially written in (and currently available through Ral Partha Legacy) over Warhammer 3rd (which was enjoyable enough).
 
I've never come across rules for a tabletop siege that were actually fun to play.  I don't recall the WH Siege rules to be any worse than others.  It does make for a pretty game at least.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 12:57:48 AM by Cat »

Offline Blackwolf

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Re: Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2022, 12:54:52 AM »
Stick with it,I’ve still got first edition you modernist  :)
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Offline KarwickWingmaker

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Re: Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2022, 01:34:58 AM »
I’ve been playing Age of Fantasy by Onepagerules and they’ve been great fun so far, providing balanced and quick games so I can get through a few battles in one evening.

They have a system called Age of Fantasy: Regiments that might be down your alley, it’s their rank and flank system.

Sieges might be slightly tricky but I’m going to be playtesting a rule where units scaling the walls count make a dangerous terrain check whenever they lose against a unit defending the walls that they are attempting to sieze. If the defending unit loses the melee they are pushed back so that the attacking unit can now place some of its models upon the walls.

Hope this helps :)

Offline tin shed gamer

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Re: Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2022, 08:29:53 AM »
Cheers Chaps,
The main reason for looking for pastures new. Is curiosity. As there's a lot of content on,and love for later editions. I was just wondering if they'd be an easier option To pick up and play.Rather than read through and scratch?
The castle isn't a one trick pony. As it's  modular and has both breached sections and wall end supports. Plus a multi level keep that can free stand on the table. It'll end up in both Pulp games and fantasy. It'll work for Frostgrave scenery as well.
The reason I mentioned siege games is because I've both a castle and the siege rules. So it makes sense that If I'm going to try a new system. Then it needs to at least have similar options to use all my terrain. ( No point switching to a set of rules that only uses wide barron battlefields. When you've  invested time in hills and forest scenery. )
I think some where in the work shop I've several armies books from later additions. I've no idea when or why I ended up with them.I know I've the army book for 3rd edition.
Which is why I'm slightly hesitating on rooting through the myriad of rules out there. As I've no real point of reference since it's been decades since I gamed fantasy.
The only thing I do know is I've absolutely no interest in play games in 'the Age of Sigmar.'
I'll be popping over to the York show ( if it's still on and if any of the relevant retailers actually show up. (( the last Partizan  was understandably short on traders.))So I was hoping for some insight from the hive mind rather than be stood listening to an opinion that's naturally driven by the desire for a sale.
I've enough of an issue trying to figure out which set of ww2 rules will represent the Homefront game I'm still building and sculpting miniatures for.With out adding Fantasy rules to the mix. lol

Offline jon_1066

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Re: Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2022, 09:56:31 AM »
I would highly recommend Lion/Dragon Rampant.  I was an old time WFB 3rd edition (plus siege!) player from back in the day.  After the early 1990's the minis got stuck in the loft and forgotten about until I had kids and decided to give them something to do so rescued said figures.  I quickly realised that WFB was basically brilliant but rubbish at the same time.  The ideas, settings, figures, etc all screamed fun but the game itself was way too long and convoluted.  There is no way to finish a game in an evening unless it is tiny.  I didn't need an all day game, I needed one that could be played in a couple of hours.

Enter Lead Adventure and the buzz at the time was about Lion Rampant.  For £12 I thought what's to lose?  Bought it and haven't looked back.  I was a collecting magpie back in the day so have Feudals, Empire, Undead, Orc, Goblins, Dwarves and Chaos all with about 60-100 figures.  Lion Rampant is perfect for this size of force,    you can play it in 2 hours and it was fun.

The system is incredibly adaptable to your figures and also rule adaptations.  It doesn't have a siege system so I made one up for it.  If you are interested I can share it somehow I'm sure (can you post Word docs to the forum?)

So yeah I'd recommend getting a copy of Lion or Dragon Rampant and give it a go.

Offline AdmiralAndy

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Re: Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2022, 10:08:23 AM »
Have you tried an Oldhammer forum or Oldhammer FB to get input from other players? May even be a 3rd ed specific one around?

If you haven't played it for 30+ years unless you've that help then some white dwarfs from that era with batreps and scenarios and features on the rules/characters that may help for some scenario design.

If not then I'd suggest a current popular game such as Kings of War, new Fantastic Battles maybe worth a look, or Oathmark which seems to be getting a lot of traction and one of the few Fantasy Rulesets getting some wargaming magazine love outside of Workshop, Dragon Rampant is too but they maybe a bit smaller size game than you mentioned but maybe worth a look.


Offline Hobgoblin

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Re: Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2022, 10:25:45 AM »
  I quickly realised that WFB was basically brilliant but rubbish at the same time.  The ideas, settings, figures, etc all screamed fun but the game itself was way too long and convoluted.  There is no way to finish a game in an evening unless it is tiny. 

Very much my experience back in the day! When we started playing Hordes of the Things, we never played Warhammer again. I remember that as a real 'scales from the eyes' moment - "So this is what a good massed-battle wargame's like".

Lion/Dragon Rampant is great; the one caveat might be that it's very much small bands of troops (6 or 12 per unit, with a 1:1 figure scale) and not rank'n'flank. My experience is that it plays best at 4-6 units a player. But it's terrific fun.

My son and I played a few "square-based games" last year; we thought Warhammer third compared poorly with Oathmark and Chainmail, both of which give you much more action for your dice roll (and thus play much more quickly). I find the hit/wound/save succession of rolls clunky and antiquated, especially for a big game.

Kings of War, in my very limited experience of playing it, is a well-designed game - fast and clean and elegant. I think the current edition doesn't (yet) have siege rules, but the past two did, I think (and you can get a bundle of the first-edition rules and supplements for a tenner). One advantage of Kings of War is that it's ported over all the Warhammer base sizes, so that orcs and lizard men ("salamanders") are on 25s while humans, dwarfs, etc., are on 20s. Oathmark assumes that all troops are on 25s; many other games work on the assumption that all infantry will be on 20s. Kings of War also works in a Warhammer-ish way when it comes to heroes and magic items, but - I gather - with much more careful balance so that these things don't become overpowering. I recall that when we played Warhammer 3rd as kids, we agreed to ban all magicians above first level and all magic items!

You can also get a cheaper Kings of War rulebook that cuts all the background stuff and just gives you the rules and army lists.

Offline Major_Gilbear

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Re: Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2022, 10:33:33 AM »
As mentioned by others, if you have the armies collected and painted, then you basically have the "hard part done", and can choose to try out whatever rules you fancy.

My own "youth era" of WHFB is 4th/5th, and it has to be said that 5th was a fair clean-up and improvement of that generation of rules all-round. I do know that many people didn't like the "Battle Magic" which replaced the previous "Colour Magic", but (1) you can just use Colour if you prefer since it's still 100% compatible, and (2) Battle was designed to be a bit more balanced and make it harder for some armies to consistently get the exact game-winning spell they needed every game. 5th Edition also had a full Siege supplement, although like all the other siege supplements that GW have ever put out it is pretty stodgy and drawn-out to actually play... Finally, a note on the "Herohammer" epithet; whilst broadly accurate, the game doesn't *need* heroes tooled-up to the nines to be playable, and either players can agree to exercise a bit of self-restraint (ask yourself: "would I want to play against this?"), or have a Magic Item draft instead (preferred). The main downside of this edition is probably tracking down all the army books, as well as the myriad cards and templates.

After that, you have 6th edition. Looking back, this is probably (IMO) the most widely-liked edition of the game across all the editions. Heroes are pretty restricted, units are king, the game is streamlined enough that you can get a game done in an afternoon, and there's no real need for lots of paraphernalia to play the game with. In fact, the big rulebook has rules for sieges and skirmish games in it too. Since this is one of the rare occasions where every supported army got an army book release during the same edition, there was quite a lot of material released for this edition. The only things I would say are "must-haves" are Ravening Hordes (regarded by many as the fairest army lists the game ever had), the latest edition of the army books for your forces (they often had themed variant lists in them, and were rather fun), and the latest Warhammer Chronicles (2004) which included the latest errata, FAQ, missing units, etc in it. Given how cheaply you can get a hardcopy of the rulebook on ebay, and the relative ease with which you can find a copy of Ravening Hordes online, I would suggest this could be worth a go without much outlay/effort needed, and you can always acquire the army books you want later if you like the game.

Honourable mention goes to 7th edition, which as a ruleset was probably the most refined WHFB ever got, only to be broken as an edition by increasingly unbalanced army books. I know there are a fair few who espouse playing 7th but with forces chosen via 6th edition army books (or even Ravening Hordes!), and this seems to me like a fair suggestion if you either have those books already, or play in a "competitive" group.

Finally, to mention a few other rulesets that you could try out with your existing forces, some of which have been mentioned already:

Kings of War 3rd Edition - Designed by Alessio Cavatore, who assisted on WHFB6E and wrote WHFB7E. Very streamlined, easy to get into, and polished to the point that there are no real "grey areas" that hold up a game in progress. Most/all WHFB armies have a KoW equivalent.

Oathmark - More of a "Dark Ages" than a "High Medieval" fantasy setting, but the rules are pretty streamlined and easy to get into. The way forces are constructed is quite different to other games too, which makes for some interesting possibilities in terms of what units can be in your army.

One Page Rules Fantasy Regiments. These, and the army lists, are all free. There's a more elaborate version available for a small fee, but the free version is enough to get a few games in and see what you think of it first. This is clearly aimed at WHFB players too, so every unit made for that game has a home in the forces lists.

None of these alternatives has any Siege rules, although I think earlier versions of KoW did (via supplement). I would expect the previous KoW Siege supplements are still compatible though, since the game is more polished than re-written for each edition.

Offline SJWi

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Re: Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2022, 01:17:19 PM »
I’ll throw my views into the ring despite not being a fantasy gamer….and hence totally unbiased! I know my mates who used to play WFB mainly moved onto KoW and view it as a good system. I have been persuaded to try Oathmark and found it OK, but nothing special. More akin to a historical ruleset with magic bolted on.I have agreed to try KoW this Sunday so will have a better view then.

Offline fred

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Re: Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2022, 06:48:19 PM »
KoW is an interesting game. I agree with all the above about it being a cleanly written system with wide ranging army lists.

But it is a very different style of game to most wargames. Charges are the only way to cause damage in melee. The defender doesn’t fight back. Positioning of units feels far more chess like - i.e. what can you use to take your unit next term. Not building a traditional battle line.

I’ve had fun games of KoW - but it can be very marmite - several of our gaming group don’t like it at all.

Offline DivisMal

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Re: Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2022, 07:22:29 PM »
I am one of those persons who doesn’t like KoW. While I respect the rules as a game - and as others have remarked, it’s a very polished game, it’s just too gamey for my taste. No fog of war, few uncertainty and no morale system iirc.
Dragon Rampant is fun and I definitely want to give HotT a try (Hobgoblin is a big fan of them).
Two new rulesets that might work are Fantastic Battles and the new mass battle set by Ganesha - I forgot the name (Of Armies and Hordes?)

Offline Sir_Theo

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Re: Should I stick with WFB 3rd edition.Or look for pastures new ?
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2022, 08:08:00 PM »
Some really.good suggestions here. I wholeheartedly agree with what everyone says about KoW- very clean system, it's great having all the army lists in the main book (well and the Uncharted Empires supplement) and it let's you have pretty big games in a pretty reasonable length of time BUT it is quite gamey, it's clearly devised with tournament play in mind.

If you like rulebooks the 3rd edition Hardback book is also quite lovely. Great maps.

If you can hunt down a copy (as I believe it is out of print) the Jake Thornton ruleset he did for Foundry 'God of Battles' had some great ideas.

 

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