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Author Topic: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?  (Read 4781 times)

Offline Shahbahraz

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Re: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2022, 07:22:10 AM »
Most current rule sets will have the second and third lines running from the morale effect of seeing the first line broken.

I have used Punic Wars period legions in two lines, but we don't know how it actually worked - and even whether there were effectively three lines or a staggered array, or even whether the lines closed up to present a solid front versus some opponents or retained gaps vs others.

It also seems to me the obsession with Romans is detrimental to ancients rules in any case. I suspect a hangover from older British rulesets written by pukka chaps, whose education was training for exceptionalism and empire, with Roman virtues lauded and Roman heroes venerated. It's still a thing with the view of the 'Western Art of War' or the clash of civilisations.

Me, I would like to know how 3rd & 4th Century Roman armies consistently lost to the Sasanians. The Roman annals are noticeably terse, and it is very hard to replicate with current rule-sets. 
Wargaming since the dark ages...

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Offline FierceKitty

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Re: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2022, 10:20:21 AM »
Well, I've got 33 ancient armies, and only five of them are Roman, including early Byzantines. I don't feel I've favoured them unduly.  lol
The laws of probability do not apply to my dice in wargames or to my finesses in bridge.

Offline Leftblank

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Re: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2022, 01:08:26 PM »
Tnx for all the comments, food for thought when reviewing rulesets.
The specific question is indeed: what makes an ancient game and ancient game?
I own an early imperial Roman army, and I'm of course wondering about the quincunx/ triple line and how/if it can can be simulated.
I'm playtesting Age of Hannibal now, it has a 2nd line support rule, that sounds good but might be nonsense for the scale they simulate.

Offline Tarnegol

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Re: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2022, 08:56:54 AM »
...but shouldn't be Hollywood...

I'm at least content with, and somewhat a fan of 'Hollywood Biblical'. That said, I hope to be honest about the influences of Hollywood (and fantasy, 'though Warhammer's a bit of a stretch) in my modelling and painting...
"One who puts on his armour should not boast like one who takes it off."

Ahab, King of Israel; 1 Kings 20:11

Offline mc_deli

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Re: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2022, 08:29:45 AM »
People
Humour
Playability
Speed
Accessibility

It’s lead on table. Historical realism is not remotely on the map for me. My first loves were Republican Romans and the Companion wedge. Having been through some rules’ attempts to replicate these tactics, I am not interested or motivated.

Far more important to me is minimising rule diving and low barrier to entry for nearly new players. A well balanced, well tested game where the plsyers are not developing on the fly is also important for me.

;)

Offline macsen wledig

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Re: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2023, 07:15:45 PM »
dont mind flicks and tricks but nonsensical/highly unrealistic maneuvers get my goat 
Slingshot Editor, Society of Ancients

Offline ithoriel

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Re: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2023, 02:00:20 AM »
Currently my favourite Ancients rule set is Strength and Honour because:

1. In 2mm, at least, it looks like a battle not a brawl in a pub car-park. Units look like units. My main problem with DBA in it's various incarnations was not the rules but the aesthetics, two horsemen don't look like a cloud of skirmishing cavalry!

2. Armies deploy like they are debouching from column of march.

3. Battle lines and their cohesion are important. Units out on their own are a hostage to fortune.

4. Manoeuvring is difficult.

5. Combat tends to be a shoving match, if the sides are reasonably evenly matched.

6. You decide who to activate when, what they're going to do and when to use precious and scarce resources to tip the scales in your favour.

7. Armies crumble as the soldier's morale is sapped by a steady trickle of minor, and occasionally major, set backs. Chances are, most of your army is still on the table.

It looks and feels like a battle, it's cheap to buy armies with a suggested maximum of 14 units and half that looking more likely (my 2mm units are costing around £3 each), it's quick to learn the basics and, finally, the fact that neither side knows exactly how either army is doing keeps things tense to the end.

And most of all, it's fun! Which, as others have said, is the most important thing.
There are 100 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data.

Offline SJWi

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Re: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2023, 05:30:19 AM »
I've re-read the thread and whilst not knocking other rulesets I'll give a big shout out for Simon Miller's TTS. IMHO the rules themselves tick most of the boxes made in earlier posts. Simple to learn and play, and the grid system removes a lot of gamesmanship. In addition the army lists are a great resource plus a very active Forum helps a lot. Finally the author himself answers questions. Yesterday I asked him a series of questions following a game last week and he answered within the hour!

Offline macsen wledig

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Re: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2023, 07:21:47 AM »
Currently my favourite Ancients rule set is Strength and Honour because:

1. In 2mm, at least, it looks like a battle not a brawl in a pub car-park. Units look like units. My main problem with DBA in it's various incarnations was not the rules but the aesthetics, two horsemen don't look like a cloud of skirmishing cavalry!

2. Armies deploy like they are debouching from column of march.

3. Battle lines and their cohesion are important. Units out on their own are a hostage to fortune.

4. Manoeuvring is difficult.

5. Combat tends to be a shoving match, if the sides are reasonably evenly matched.

6. You decide who to activate when, what they're going to do and when to use precious and scarce resources to tip the scales in your favour.

7. Armies crumble as the soldier's morale is sapped by a steady trickle of minor, and occasionally major, set backs. Chances are, most of your army is still on the table.

It looks and feels like a battle, it's cheap to buy armies with a suggested maximum of 14 units and half that looking more likely (my 2mm units are costing around £3 each), it's quick to learn the basics and, finally, the fact that neither side knows exactly how either army is doing keeps things tense to the end.

And most of all, it's fun! Which, as others have said, is the most important thing.

good list...I can ascribe to that

Offline Ethelred the Almost Ready

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Re: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2023, 08:48:14 AM »
2,3,4,7 are all very important (as well as being playable and fun). I have become less certain about a shoving match after some recent reading (especially Richard Taylor, The Greek Hoplite Phalanx) but they suit the common perception and possibly allow for some decisions about where to throw on support so I would be happy with that.
Do the rules really need a micro scale?  Could one get away with 6mm?
Are they just for the Roman era, or are there rules/lists for Hoplites, Macedonians and Persians?

Online dadlamassu

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Re: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2023, 09:06:38 AM »
All my GOOD wargames have been in good company, with humour in a friendly atmosphere = fun.  The quality of the rules, tactics and models are secondary uness they spoil the fun by being too onerous - then we stop and play something else.  We don't try simulation we play games for fun. 

Come to think of it that applies whether it is historical, fantasy, pulp, scifi whatever.
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.'
-- Xenophon, The Anabasis

Online has.been

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Re: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2023, 11:48:03 AM »
Quote
All my GOOD wargames have been in good company, with humour in a friendly atmosphere = fun.  The quality of the rules, tactics and models are secondary uness they spoil the fun by being too onerous - then we stop and play something else.  We don't try simulation we play games for fun.

Come to think of it that applies whether it is historical, fantasy, pulp, scifi whatever.

Amen brother! :)

Offline macsen wledig

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Re: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2023, 12:20:20 PM »
although as a soloist, the company can be a bit lacking at times.... :D

Offline SteveBurt

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Re: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2023, 04:23:02 PM »
That list for a strength and honour would apply to DBA if you used your 2mm armies for that instead of larger figures

Online Easy E

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Re: What makes an ancients wargame a GOOD Ancients wargame?
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2023, 04:37:32 PM »
The details of ancients battles can be just about anything because we do not know the details of them despite what anyone says. I more impressed if a game has a point of view on the subject and sticks with that view through out the rules. Whether they believe in battle lines, small packets of engagement, give-and-take, etc.  It doesn't matter as long as they apply it consistently. 

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