The Ill-made Wargame - Knight skirmish game for 14th century - help please

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

I have been reading Christian Cameron’s Chivalry series of books (1350s and 60s set in France and Italy, but also cover the Alexandrian Crusade and the Savoyard Crusade in the Balkans).  As often happens when I read historical novels, I start to think about how to base a wargame around them.  It is a period about which I have only very basic knowledge.

I was thinking about a game with a low number of figures – possibly as low as 3 or 4 a side up to 20 or 30 per side.  Are there any rules that will manage this range in figures?  I would quite like to have distinct characters for the leaders.  In other words, I need something that allows for individuals and small units/groups to be managed as well as having some individualisation of my “heroes and villains”.

In the books the typical organisation is a lance of 3 or 4 men – a man-at-arms, a squire and/or an archer and a page.  These are mostly figures that are easy to find, but finding a page seems difficult.  Would they have worn armour at all?  Are there any miniatures ranges that do pages or proxy figures?  I would want most figures to have a mounted and unmounted version.

In the books the main characters seem to mainly use long swords and so, presumably don’t use shields.  Most figure ranges only have a few long swords for this period and mostly have knights with shields and an arming sword.  For the period covered by the books (1350s and 60s) what would have been usual? Or was there a good mix of weapons?

Would the routiers and mercenary bands have caparisoned horses and/or barding?  To my mind mostly unbarded horses seem suitable for this level of combat.

The figure ranges I have found that seem appropriate (in 28mm) are: Crusader, Front Line, Claymore Castings, Foundry/Casting Room Miniatures, 1st Corps, V&V, Mirliton .  Would the Stradiots from Perry Miniatures be OK for this earlier period?  Are there any other miniature lines? I would also like to have some civilians and even some knights not in armour if possible (in their city clothes).  These do not seem easy to find – earlier medieval or later Renaissance civilians are easy to find.

If I were to eventually try to cover the Bulkans, Egypt and Turkey, are there any manufacturers who make figures for these nationalities during this period?

Any help is appreciated.

[Golgotha]

Given the size and organisation as well as need for historical feel I would strongly suggest Retinue by Tabletop Games - it is an old set of rules but are worth giving a try.

See: https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/24824/retinue-medieval-skirmish-rules/ratings?rated=1

[tikitang]

I was thinking about a game with a low number of figures – possibly as low as 3 or 4 a side up to 20 or 30 per side.  Are there any rules that will manage this range in figures? I would quite like to have distinct characters for the leaders. 

Reading this, I was going to suggest Ravenfeast, which is Viking-themed, but can easily be repurposed for any pre-gunpowder setting.

However...

I need something that allows for individuals and small units/groups to be managed as well as having some individualisation of my “heroes and villains”.

If you're wanting units to move in groups, rather than individually, I'd actually be tempted to go with Warhammer Fantasy Battle 2nd Edition. It's well suited for managing small units, as well as heroic individuals, and is completely free-form in terms of equipment selection for your units.

[has.been]

Look at the Fist Full of Lead range (Wiley Games in USA & Oshiro, LAFer, UK)
You can start skirmish level, a few figures a player, which you can easily
customize, then (if you want) move on to more figures use their 'Big Battles'
rules.
The rules are:-
 nice & simple, easy to pick up & play, able to be detailed with your view of
what the 'troops' should be like.

The PDF versions are cheap, though I prefer paper.
Here on LAF are quite a few Medieval games that use the rules. Have a look.

https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=121380.msg1521605#msg1521605

[fred]

I was going to suggest FFoL too - it is more Hollywood than hard historical - but it gives a great game.



To me a long sword is still single handed. Shields were very much in use in the period you are looking at.

[Mammoth miniatures]

You could also use brutal quest - Designed for between 1 and 10 minis in a warband BUT you can scale it up by reusing a generic character for your troops/footmen etc.

I was on a bit of an Arthurian romance bender when I wrote it so it has a bit of that baked in.
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/352626/Brutal-Quest--Narrative-skirmish-rules-based-on-the-planet-28-engine

[Easy E]

Lion Rampant using Dragon Rampants unit size rules?

[commissarmoody]

You can try the Lords & Servants Medieval Skirmish rules.
Described as having "all the information that you need to create your games, from simple clashes involving a few men per side to bigger encounters with 60-80 miniatures per side, ideal for multiplayer games. The book includes 10 generic scenarios"
http://www.dadiepiombo.it/english-lordsandservants.html

If you like the Lord Of The Rings skirmish rules, then I will suggest the Age of the Trebuchet mod rules. http://xoth.de/_sweetwater/Farnworth%20%20Age%20of%20Treb%20LOTR.pdf

And I also love those books, crunched thru all of them and the Thomas Swan series as well. His fantasy novels are not bad ether, but I preferer his historical fictions.

[Patrice]

As usual I could suggest Argad, if playing with a RPG mind and not competitive at all. 

the typical organisation is a lance of 3 or 4 men – a man-at-arms, a squire and/or an archer and a page.  These are mostly figures that are easy to find, but finding a page seems difficult.  Would they have worn armour at all?

A page could probably wear a chainmail, or some gambeson, or light clothes.
Not sure you need one... An armed servant would be present with the knight to help him for everyday life at camp, but this role can be taken by the squire or by the archer, or by an additional mounted sergeant (gros valet or hobelar) armed with a spear or some other staff weapon.
Depending on the nation you could have a crossbowman too, or replacing the archer.

the main characters seem to mainly use long swords and so, presumably don’t use shields.  Most figure ranges only have a few long swords for this period and mostly have knights with shields and an arming sword.  For the period covered by the books (1350s and 60s) what would have been usual? Or was there a good mix of weapons?

Many would have a two-handed sword or a two-handed axe, to use in big melees against other armoured knights, and their arming sword of course, and they would pass their shield on their back or leave it behind when using the longer weapon. Others, only the arming sword. Too many two-handed weapons would not be practical as they would lack room to use them effectively, also shields were very often needed, they would bring one in any case.

Would the routiers and mercenary bands have caparisoned horses and/or barding?

Probably not... But some large "routes" were led by renowned knights, so you may have exceptions.

[rumacara]

About miniatures you can check Front Rank HYW range. Very nice figures. And you can pick individual figures both mounted and dismounted to have the 2 versions.
And as an idea why dont you check Bertrand Du Guesclin and the war for the possession of the duchy of Brittany. The bigest period of activity was around 1360s and you can pick Du Guesclin and one of the english captains as the 2 forces.

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

Thanks for the feedback.
Mammoth Miniatures made me think whether the high medieval version of A Song of Arthur and Merlin might work.  I will also take a look at Brutal Quest.

Fistful of Lead has some similarities to Outremer: Faith and Blood.  Wrong period but possibly adaptable??

Lords and Servants looks interesting.
Has anyone used Feudal Patrol or Chevauche?  I am unsure whether the card mechanism for the former may become a bit of a nuisance in a big game.

Thanks Patrice for the advice on horses, armour and weapons.

And thanks to all the rest of you for taking time to reply.

[Patrice]

Also, mid-14th century French "lances" were not standardized at all (much less than the English ones which had to cross the sea). The man-at-arms would come with a few men available in his manor, could be 5-6 armed with spears or crossbows. And there were many very poor nobility, who would come with bad equipment, or serve as squire under their local knight.

[AndrewBeasley]

Though a little earlier in history have a look at Outremer: Faith and Blood from Osprey (here)

[jon_1066]

Barons War might fit the bill.  Has characters and groups of plebs.  It's set 100 years before but probably not too difficult to port to a slightly later date.

[NurgleHH]

Look at the Fist Full of Lead range (Wiley Games in USA & Oshiro, LAFer, UK)
You can start skirmish level, a few figures a player, which you can easily
customize, then (if you want) move on to more figures use their 'Big Battles'
rules.
The rules are:-
 nice & simple, easy to pick up & play, able to be detailed with your view of
what the 'troops' should be like.

The PDF versions are cheap, though I prefer paper.
Here on LAF are quite a few Medieval games that use the rules. Have a look.

https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=121380.msg1521605#msg1521605

Remember a knights game with FFoL some years ago with Captain Blood, Malamute & the Oshiro at BLAM. A wonderful game. It was a small skirmish, you can expand the the game now with FFoL:Big Battle for a bit bigger skirmish. This fact makes the rules very variable and offers new ideas in my view. (The sieg and the follow storm in the castle i.e.)