Too high expectations for metal mini manufacturers?

[Duncan McDane]

About the "premium"-part. I just checked on Footsore and a rank and file model is 2 UKP, a character on foot 4 UKP.
Let's be honest, that isn't premium pricing ( no, I'm not affiliated with them nor am I in the business, just an avid collector ), not even for historicals which tend to be a lot cheaper than their fantasy/sci fi counterparts. The guys should be able to make a living too, yes?

[N.C.S.E]

All this stuff about the slow decline of metals makes for grim reading.

In my strictly personal opinion I honestly cannot stomach plastics and find them miserable and dissatisfying to paint. A lot of the stuff offered for 3D printing (with a few remarkable exceptions) meanwhile I find soulless with every pose obviously hacked out in an afternoon from a single T-posed original. A very few 3d sculpted figures manage to pull off what the hand sculpted ones continue to do effortlessly. I understand why we're moving away from metals but still - it'll be a sad day when metals are left behind. 

[Elbows]

I think that's kind of sugar-coating it though.  There are plenty of excellent metals which are 3D designs now, simply printed and then put into metal.

There are heaps of awful metal miniatures out there.  Some people write it off as "character", but there are numerous metal companies that I can't believe stay in business.  I'd argue there are just as many awful metal designs/sculpts as there are 3D, digital, or plastic.

I use everything, as I enjoy buying one-piece metal minis for fantasy gaming, etc.  I use plastics, and plenty of 3D printed stuff as well.  I even use resin...my least favourite gaming material.

The issue here though, seems to be a crappy final product.  That's inexcusable, regardless of the material, short of buying a bag of 50 toy soldiers at the dollar-store, or some such.

[Ray Rivers]

A lot of the stuff offered for 3D printing (with a few remarkable exceptions) meanwhile I find soulless with every pose obviously hacked out in an afternoon from a single T-posed original.

I dunno...

Have you seen Berndi's "Predator - Start of a long term project?"

https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=136951.msg1741398#msg1741398

Those are some smashing minis. I also googled up STLs by Papsikel and there are some tremendous sculpts.

3D printing still has a long way to evolve, but I think one day you will be able to print minis with a metal medium of that is what you want.

[Fighting15s]

It's pretty clear modern metal stuff is way ahead in terms of quality things have certainly improved as far as casting, alloy used and design, though I'd say sometimes at the loss of character and charm, compared to 1980s minis.

Casting technology has improved surprisingly little since the 1980s. Many miniatures businesses use what are quite ancient machines, yet produce exceptionally good results. There are operators who are interested in how their machines work and will get the best out of them; there are others who just pour metal and hope. Compressor machines have done a lot to simplify the process for operators, but in themselves they are not the means to better castings. I'd like to think the push-button technology promised by the Siocast plastic injection moulding process eliminated operator error, but judging from every Siocast casting I have seen, mould lines can be an issue.

Moulds have changed, but black rubber still has attractions over silicone because it's half the price for a pair of blanks. While I feel that silicone offers better dimensional stability and makes it much easier to lay out a mould, the allure of traditional black rubber means that you're getting figures produced the same way as they have been since the 1980s and earlier. Some of the worst black rubber moulds in my collection come from quite well known casting operations.

Alloys haven't changed. I did metallurgy and materials technology as a degree in the early 1980s. Tin-lead alloys were all pretty much worked out as to what combinations were viable way back then. There are minor changes to compositions to improve flow or other characteristics, but it's not ground-breaking stuff. What is an issue is businesses that use any old metal they get rather than a tried and tested alloy: poor metal mixes result in sinks and voids, or poor surface finish. It's why in general businesses don't accept scrap figures to remelt, because the results are not reliable. Do some of today's manufacturers still use any old metal they can? Yes.

As for design, there are still sculptors who use too thin a wire for spears, make weak connections for bayonets, design masters that crack under pressure and leave tiny gaps for rubber to get into, creating a weakness in the casting, and so on.

What might be argued is that 40 years on, some people producing figures have become more experienced at knowing what works and just have better practices. There are also people with decades of experience who have learned nothing.

[WorkShy]

On this topic I will give a big shout-out for Aventine Miniatures . Not only are they beautiful figures, but are reasonably priced and the mould quality excellent. Customer service is second-to-none, with Keith the owner even answering a query I had on a Sunday morning. Companies like this deserve our full support.

I'd agree with that. Aventine have been an exception. It's a shame that much of their Byzantine range is too late in period to be used as Late Romans.

About the "premium"-part. I just checked on Footsore and a rank and file model is 2 UKP, a character on foot 4 UKP.
Let's be honest, that isn't premium pricing ( no, I'm not affiliated with them nor am I in the business, just an avid collector ), not even for historicals which tend to be a lot cheaper than their fantasy/sci fi counterparts. The guys should be able to make a living too, yes?

As I said earlier in the thread, I'd happily pay 2-3x the cost for a miniature in perfect condition. That option simply doesn't exist. Hence my initial view that do I just need to order everything twice and dump 50% of the minis in the bin!

With Footsore, I'm typically buying via their Warband bundle (effective 25% discount) and also getting another 20% discount on top of that for ordering over £100 on each order. I'm effectively buying rank-and-file infantry for £1.20 and cavalry for £2. Characters and other specials are £2-£4/mini. At this point, I've spent around £500 on minis in the last 3 months. That has got me around 125 infantry and 75 cavalry. Treating cavalry as 2 infantry, I'm paying an average of less than £1.8/mini. Total amount spent is around £1200, including all paints/primers, brushes, magnets, decals/bases/tufts etc. So the minis are only 40% of the cost anyway. Double the price of the minis, I wouldn't care at all.

The issue for me is time not money. I've tracked my painting and it takes me about 30mins/infantry and 60mins/cavalry when done on a production line basis. If it takes me 30mins/mini to fill in the pock marks, file down globs of pewter and get rid of mould lines, that's just halved my productivity. I'm trying to get a decent amount of minis on the table. After 3 months, I've only got 120 infantry and 60 cavalry actually done. I have a full time job.

It's sort of obvious. The better the mini quality is, the less time it takes me to complete, the more I will buy. More profit for the manufacturer. This is also why it's barmy they takes 4 weeks to deliver a £100 order. Effectively, they are just reducing the amount I will spend with them. Their excuse was a £42k kickstarter that had to be delivered. If your business is bottlenecked for a month by a trivial order of £42k, you really need to look at your business model. Honestly, I've looked at the accounts of the some of these historical mini manufacturers on CH and I really don't know where they think they are going. They are hobby businesses in more ways that one.

[Duncan McDane]

So you are buying them in bulk or on offer ( so they are even cheaper , so more people do the same so even more wear on the molds) and still are expecting them to deliver fully to your expectations?
Come on, they cannot run a business model simply on your expectations or your painting speed alone.
Really...

[WorkShy]

I'm buying 40-50 minis per order (so 1 order each month for £80 with their 20% discount). That's hardly bulk buying. I have to assume most orders are far far larger than that. I'm wondering if the reason it takes so long is because the order is too small for them to care.

Their pricing hasn't changed in all those months, so this is not some special deal. That's their pricing model. End of.

I don't expect them to run any business based on my expectations. I do expect the product not to be broken, pitted, with mould lines over the eyes and globs of pewter all over the place. I don't expect to have to fix their production issues on 25% of the order. It shouldn't take days to get hold of them. They shouldn't then excuse the problem by whining they are a small business and too busy. Not my problem. If they can whine so can I. Their sculpts are excellent but, frankly, their production, delivery and attitude is shoddy.

[Westfalia Chris]

I guess that sums up your grievances, and I'm afraid there won't be a ready solution for the issue(s) at hand. In order not to escalate this to really unpleasant levels, it is probably best to lock the thread at this juncture.