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Author Topic: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise  (Read 5341 times)

Offline Dolnikan

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Re: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2022, 06:29:20 AM »
Those knights look absolutely gorgeous and I can't wait to see more.

And about Hotspur and Hawkwood (the H-gang?) I don't think that size will be much of an issue. Sure, they might be a little bit taller, but they don't look like they're too much taller to not just be a pair of taller guys.

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2022, 09:52:07 AM »
Tremendous paintwork. Really well done  :-*

Offline Wiegraf

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Re: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2022, 12:26:18 AM »
Thanks again for the words of encouragement everyone. Been slow going since I've been focusing on business / recently launched a Decal Kickstarter that I also shared here on the forums.

Quote
And about Hotspur and Hawkwood (the H-gang?) I don't think that size will be much of an issue. Sure, they might be a little bit taller, but they don't look like they're too much taller to not just be a pair of taller guys.

Seems you are absolutely correct, Dolnikan. In fact, the minis match up much greater than I expected even with the plastic Perry miniatures.




I was expecting much larger / bulky proportions but it turns out that both will fit in nicely and aren't too clunky to fit in well with the army. Quite pleased with the both of them.

I've got number 11/500 of John Hawkwood... they make 500 of each of these Giants. Hotspur was #63 out of the lot, but it seems almost nobody is buying Hawkwood? shame since I see a lot of potential for him in 15th century armies!

Online Charlie_

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Re: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2022, 06:24:41 PM »
I've got number 11/500 of John Hawkwood... they make 500 of each of these Giants. Hotspur was #63 out of the lot, but it seems almost nobody is buying Hawkwood? shame since I see a lot of potential for him in 15th century armies!

Sorry I meant to respond to this earlier - you are right it's a sculpt with lots of potential. And I only became aware of it from this thread, so thank you for that! I promptly bought one and converted it into a late 15th century standard bearer.



Perhaps the only people that are aware of these miniatures are Wargames Illustrated subscribers?

Offline Wiegraf

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Re: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2022, 08:10:53 PM »
Quote
Sorry I meant to respond to this earlier - you are right it's a sculpt with lots of potential. And I only became aware of it from this thread, so thank you for that! I promptly bought one and converted it into a late 15th century standard bearer.



Perhaps the only people that are aware of these miniatures are Wargames Illustrated subscribers?

Hey! I saw your share of this one on Facebook. Glad I was able to bring up awareness. Funny, I was showing my wife your converted image the other day - It looks excellent and welll done on changing it - though I think I'm going to let my mini of Hawkwood keep his head! 

I also think the mini itself, as I was mentioning, is certainly sculpted after the 1436 artwork of Hawkwood, which means he has a more 15th century aesthetic going around him. Personally, I think this artistic image represents him better for the late 14th century when he was active.


Therefore you converting him to represent a soldier from 1450-1500 makes much more sense. It looks much more appropriate this way, so again, well done!  I think for myself I'll be using him to represent a Savoyard or Piedmont noble of some sort when I get to do the Burgundian wars.

I found out about these models because I follow Wargames Illustrated on their Facebook page. Sometimes some of their models sell out insanely fast - Their 300 Spartan Leonidas model or their caesar mini were gone quick (I was lucky to get both). Meanwhile, Hawkwood doesn't seem to be on everyone's agenda for painting. He's not exactly a Joan of Arc or El Cid historically so I guess it would take more time to sell out (though they also have Joan of Arc that's still up for sale on their collection. Personally I didn't get her, because I prefer the Perry horses over Wargames Illustrated ones!) I feel their minis are hit or miss, regardless. Hotspur and Hawkwood just worked out well for the 15th century projects. =)




Online Charlie_

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Re: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2022, 08:17:50 PM »
I also think the mini itself, as I was mentioning, is certainly sculpted after the 1436 artwork of Hawkwood, which means he has a more 15th century aesthetic going around him.

Absolutely, he is waring late 15th century armour without a doubt!

Though I couldn't give a more specific dating of it.... Could it be as early as 1436? Possibly... I've got a feeling the rondels on the elbows wouldn't be seen on late 15th century Italian armour, they're perhaps an older feature, but the large pauldrons definitely are more post 1450.

Offline Wiegraf

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Re: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2022, 08:26:37 PM »
Quote
Absolutely, he is waring late 15th century armour without a doubt!

Though I couldn't give a more specific dating of it.... Could it be as early as 1436? Possibly... I've got a feeling the rondels on the elbows wouldn't be seen on late 15th century Italian armour, they're perhaps an older feature, but the large pauldrons definitely are more post 1450.

I cannot really state the date with absolute certainty. 1436 is the earliest and mentioned date I found based on my research, but based on your reasoning it does seem that the artwork could have come out much later than the 1430s if you look at the gear he is wearing. It's also to my understanding that the first signs of Gothic and advanced Milanese plate just started to emerge during that time, sometime in the 30s, and would perhaps not yet be mainstream used. It's really hard to know sometimes as the dates on some historical pieces might actually be incorrect.  To me the Hawkwood artwork looks like gear that would not exist during the early 15th century, that is for sure!




Offline Wiegraf

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Re: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2022, 09:15:12 PM »
I've been working on the other Knights lately, and most of their base coats are done, but I'm on the most challenging of the lot now, which is Louis, Comte de Vendome.

I've made him fairly fancy with his golden armor pieces and I am going to give him his full on coat of arms over armor.





He'll also have one of his retinue, a battle standard bearer, follow him around on horseback. That man-at-arms will be carrying his banner, which I got from GMB designs.



I'm practicing tiny lion calligraphy before I throw it on the coat of arms. I'm in need of practice with freehand at this scale and don't want to just jump right into it like I did with Arthur III - I'd like to make them as nice as possible. I make good use of all those extra renedra bases I wont use for a while.




A question does arise while painting this man nn regards to Heraldry - I think I've painted the count correctly on his clothing - the front and back will both match each other depicting the  bLue Vendome Lion rampant facing leftwards. My question is for the flag - When I fold and close it overtop of the Man at arms banner pole , the Right side of the flag will have the lions facing left, but the other side of the flag will be facing right.  Basically one side is opposite the other.


So actually two questions arise - Did medieval banners look like this? I know they weren't using flags in those days - but would one side of the banner be opposite the other depending what direction you looked at it?


Another question also - for heraldry on tabards, tunics, and different cloth would the direction of the heraldry reverse? to me it makes sense, in the case of the Count of Vendome here, to have both the front and the back of his heraldry on cloth facing leftwards, as no matter where you stand you'd essentially have the same direction.

And what about horse Caparison?  Would heraldry reverse on the left and right side of the horse like the flag does?  does it sit like Bretonnian Knights are displayed? I think I've seen both methods represented - so I am not sure if there is a correct way or not to display coats of arms on flags or horses.  Any opinions or sources or input greatly appreciate as I move onwards with continued painting.  :) Thanks everyone.

Online Charlie_

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Re: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2022, 09:29:32 PM »
I think you're right, the flag will be 'reversed' on one side, whereas the surcourt / tabard etc will not be.

But the horse caparison... I don't actually know!

Offline Longshanks

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Re: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2022, 04:32:17 AM »
My understanding is that, for both flags and the caparisons on horses, the device on the knight's heraldry (if it faces a certain direction and is not symmetrical) always faces "forward" and therefore would be reversed on one side. As you've correctly done on the surcoat/jupon, this reversing does not happen - the heraldic device always faces the same way on both the front and back.

Edited to say that I'm looking forward to seeing your finished Count of Vendome. All of your models to date have been top notch and your heraldry is beautiful!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2022, 04:38:23 AM by Longshanks »

Offline glenning

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Re: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2022, 04:33:46 PM »
Great work - can't wait to see more!

Offline Wiegraf

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Re: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2022, 10:12:40 AM »
Hello everyone. I have been fairly busy with work, fulfilling Kickstarter's, prepping the next ones, and working on various projects including commissions but I finally got around to finishing the latest 6 Knights.

I found it somewhat hard to take clear photos tonight, so I'll share the best I have. I will probably add more from games later on!

Louis, Count of Vendome and friends.






Some other Knights and nobles.






One of the La Fayette family.



William II Viscount of Narbonne




The whole unit all together.




I found it hard to take some quality images, so I'll share these for now. Otherwise, I've got them up on YouTube if anyone's interested in checking out the whole lot and me babbling on about my personal project.  https://youtu.be/fpNaY-1g7x4 

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2022, 04:32:49 PM »
Lovely  :-*

Offline rumacara

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Re: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2022, 06:06:46 PM »
Great work. :-* :-*

Offline MaleGriffin

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Re: Hundred Years War WIP. Heraldry and Civic Pavise
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2022, 03:05:13 AM »
Masterful Conversion and brushwork!
Hoc quoque transibit
Sanguinem sistit semper

 

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