Suggestions for my first Ancients Ruleset

[gldnbear93]

So, I backed the 3DBreed Greeks and Persians Kickstarter, figuring it would be my first foray into a 15mm project (I’ve done several 28mm Bolt Action armies and 28 and 32mm skirmish bands).

I am looking for a straightforward first ruleset for ancient battles. I normally play in skirmish games sizes (8-20 figures-Malifaux, 5 Parsecs, Don’t Look Back- or 40-100 figures-Bolt Action, Blood and Plunder), but this will be a larger project, thus the 15mm scale (maybe a couple hundred figures per side). I prefer a ruleset that makes use of terrain, provides for historical tactics but is not beholden to simulation at the expense of ease of play, is cinematic, plays in a couple of hours, is easy to teach, and most of all is fun. I want something that looks big on a 6x4 table.

If anyone has a suggestion and explanation or two for such a ruleset, it would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.

[frank xerox]

ADLG might be worth a punt. Check out madaxemans blog, he’s a huge fan, but there’s a load of battle reports etc that should give you an idea of whether it’s or you.

[Jjonas]

I also would say ADLG is a good and popular place to start with 15mm. There is a lot of buzz about Mortem et Gloriam. And of course there are a DBx style games which are still around. I don't do 15mm so I have no barded horse in this race.

[SJWi]

My go to rules are Simon Miller's "To the Strongest". You will need a gridded mat and some extra chits but IMHO worth the investment.

[cgh]

I would second "To the Strongest ". 15mm should play nicely on a 6x4 table.  Never had a duff game with those rules.

[Hobgoblin]

I'd start with DBA even if you go on to other things. Its basing is pretty much the standard for 15mm (it's used in ADLG, for example), and it's a quick, challenging and fun game. The rules are cheap and short, and while they're famously awkwardly written, they do constitute a fairly 'tight' and foolproof system (the closely related fantasy variant Hordes of the Things is a bit easier to grasp).

Now, DBA is typically played on just a 2' by 2' or 3' by 3' table. But the game works perfectly well with bigger armies (essentially, multiple armies per player) and a bigger table.

Why would I start with it? Well, if you use the prescribed 12-element armies (the book is full of lists), you'll be able to get your first games in very quickly; you only need to paint a total of 24 bases to have two full 'armies'. And then you can build up to two or three or four 'armies' a side on a full-sized table. All your troops will be based for most 15mm games in any case.

Also, it's a good game that's stood the test of time. You can play a standard (12 elements vs 12) game in an hour; with several 'armies' a side, you'll get up to your two-hour desired length easily enough. It's also simple: each player rolls a D6 at the start of his turn; that's the number of movement activations he can make - whether of individual elements or of groups of them.

Shooting and melee are automatically fought for all those within range or engaged; combat is an opposed D6 roll with modifiers depending on troop type. Crucially, combat outcomes vary according to the combination of troops involved. For example, 'blades' (e.g. Roman legionaries) will add 5 to their roll against other foot, so will normally win. Unless they double their foes, though, they'll usually just push them back. By contrast, 'warband' (e.g. German tribesmen) will only add 3 to their roll, but will 'quick kill' blades if they beat them at all. Similarly, 'knights' (heavy cavalry - cataphracts, etc.) will 'quick kill' loose-order infantry like warbands if they beat them. These potential outcomes give the game a lot of tactical depth in a sort of grand game of rock/paper/scissors.

The best things about DBA are that it plays very quickly and smoothly and creates a convincing picture of a battle, even though combat is somewhat abstracted. It puts a lot of importance on line, which makes it seem more authentic than many games.

Some historical players do prefer the Hordes of the Things variant - it's largely the same game with a few different elements - and it is a bit less prescriptive; you have much more freedom to choose your armies. You could certainly get a good game of Greeks vs Persians from it; the one thing that's missing are the psiloi/skirmisher types, but you could essentially field the DBA armies using Shooters instead of Bows or Psiloi for the missile troops.

Anyway, I'd see DBA/HotT as a great starting option - something that you can get games in with only a few elements of troops painted and something that you can expand to bigger armies as you get more figures finished. And again, as DBA basing is pretty much universal, you'd only be losing less than £15 if you decided you really hated it!

One more thing: everyone I've played the game with has really enjoyed it. I think its durability - how many wargames are still in print after 30-odd years with only a very few rule changes? - is testament to its quality.

[Maniac]

Hail Caesar! is a good system, and is functionally scale agnostic.  It plays fairly fast, and I like the command system.

Also, while designed for 10mm, you could play Warmaster in 15mm.  It is the predecessor to Hail Caesar!, written by some of the same folks.

We play both at our club, WM in 10mm and Hail Caesar! in 28mm.  However there is nothing stopping them being played in 15mm.  WM is more keen on specific base measurements, while Hail Caesar! doesn't care particularly (as long as comparable units are based similar).

Terrain is of middling interest though.  In truth, battles tended to be fought on level ground or in open areas.  Terrain was typically used to secure flanks.  So most rules systems will deal with terrain, but aren't going to have 40k type cities you fight through, unless they are skirmish based games.

Thus you might get rules for rivers, marching on a road, hills/cliffs, and the like in a mass battle game.  However you aren't likely to see hiding in a fortress, climbing up ladders, and the like outside of special siege rules for the system.

 

[pancakeonions]

Another vote for To The Strongest!  It's the most fun I've had with any table top wargame in ages.  It's easy, it's fast, and it's very fun.  The grid is so good, I don't want to go back to rulers!  The base rules are for ancients, with an expansion for middle ages (I think) and there's rules out there for fantasy battles, if that's something that interests you too.  I've played both Ancients and Fantasy, and would highly recommend it. 

[craigjonwoodfield]

It's a target rich environment.

DBA has the advantages of small sized forces, and quite popular. But it has very little character. I personally don't care for it much.

I would vote for ADLG - everything in the one book, scalable, reasonable level of complexity, reasonably popular. Has it's issues, but has plenty of strengths.

MeG - very detailed, quite large armies, long games. Like it, don't love it.

HC - combines the mediocre and superb in equal measure. Probably not a good starting point for a newbie.

Good luck.

CW

[Hobgoblin]

Thus you might get rules for rivers, marching on a road, hills/cliffs, and the like in a mass battle game.  However you aren't likely to see hiding in a fortress, climbing up ladders, and the like outside of special siege rules for the system.

That's a good point - but you also get rules for how certain troop types are disrupted by having to fight in certain types of terrain.

In DBA, for example, warbands are quite at home in forests, but blades and spears suffer heavy combat penalties if forced to fight in them. And most systems should give advantages to troops defending riverbanks, fortifications or higher ground.

It might also be worth throwing One Hour Wargames into the mix - it's an incredibly simple system, but it gives good, quick games and great scenarios that you can adapt to more complex games.

If memory serves, it uses only four to six units a side, so you could get a 'micro game' (using one conventional 40mm element as a unit rather than several) going very quickly. I think there's real value in having a 'starter' game that you can play with smaller forces, rather than having to wait until you've got dozens of elements painted to play.

[peachy rex]

Basic Impetus? Fairly straightforward, everything in one book including army lists, compatible with common basing systems, don't need many figs to get started, "big brother" to try later on...

[has.been]

I agree with what Hobgoblin said.
Start with DBA (Vodkafan & I played FOUR games in a morning recently
& still had plenty of time for chat & tea  )
You can always move on to its big battle brother DBM if you want.
With DBA it is possible to do a CAMPAIGN in a day, & I have done that.
Less stress if you spread it out over a couple of weeks though.
The suggested campaigns link six armies that have a theme, be it
Alexander's conquests or the Punic Wars or something else, so you
would be on your war to two big armies. e.g. Carthaginians, Numidians &
Gauls to take on Republican Romans & their buddies.

[mellis1644]

Ask this question and get quite a few answers. Like what is the best beer/whisky/sports team question, this discussion could go on for a while...

My suggestions would be to see what people in your area play as well - assuming you are not the only one around. Try those rule sets and see if they work for you. Typically, you can find people playing different rules sets in most area's.

There have been good suggestions in this already - I have played most/all of them. DBA is a good starter and way into things as painting large armies can be a slog.

I would recommend sticking with the 'typical' basing, which in 15mm is multiple figs on a 40mm wide and either 40mm deep or smaller. DBA size basing has smaller depths and is more complex but you can see that in various rules. Most/all rules sets work with those which is the one nice thing in ancients gaming.

Note an added bonus for DBA is you can buy premade packs form various manufacturers (essex, Xyston and others) which is a great way to try things out.

[Easy E]

Well, it sounds like you are specifically going for Greeks vs Persians.  In addition, your background is a bit more skirmished base than mass battles.  Plus, with these criteria:

I prefer a ruleset that makes use of terrain, provides for historical tactics but is not beholden to simulation at the expense of ease of play, is cinematic, plays in a couple of hours, is easy to teach, and most of all is fun.

 

In that case, might I humbly recommend my own Men of Bronze from Osprey Games. 

https://ospreypublishing.com/men-of-bronze

You can see how it plays here:
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2021/06/battle-report-men-of-bronze-corinthian.html

and here:
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2018/10/men-of-bronze-battle-report-desecrate.html

Granted, my battles are at 28mm but it works just as well using mutli-based units in 15mm. 

However, barring that I would recommend playing what people around you are playing.  If you are going it alone, then you have the luxury of playing whatever you feel like!   

[princeman]

To the Strongest by Simon Miller. Easy to read and understand. Fast play. Looks great on the table and fast wonderful support.
We played Tactica for over 25 years and now use To the Strongest.