Hivemind help with the Wars of the Roses retinue choices

[MaleGriffin]

I'm collecting both sides for the WOTR and I need to choose which Noble retinues to paint.

I'd like to use decals for livery badges (my eyes and the steadiness of my hands are shot) but Dom seems to be out of business and although Citadel Six has fantastic variety, the price is rather dear for what I have in mind. I could go with one from each faction, but where's the fun in that.

I want to field a variety of livery colors including murrey and tenné.

I tried looking at the most active nobles, one of whom was Sir John Conyers of Hornby, who participated in seven battles (First St Albans (Y). Blore Heath (Y). Northampton (Y). Towton (Y). Edgecote (L). Barnet (L). Bosworth (Y)) and even though he participated  in more battles than virtually anyone else, unless I missed something, he isn't represented by Citadel Six.

I'm not a WOTR scholar, so I am unfamiliar with the personal rivalries or other factors that might make for interesting matchups.

So who do you think are  the best five nobles from the Lancastrians and five from the Yorkists to collect?

Any advice is appreciated,

[FierceKitty]

Everyone always wants to see the Percies and the Nevilles on the field.

[has.been]

The Stanleys, but that is just me sitting on the fence.

[Atheling]

OK, my advice for a beginner would be to go to the Lance and Longbow Society shop and buy all of these booklets:

Battles Section:

Pub-019- The Battle of Barnet 1471 38.00   

Pub-020- The Battle of Bosworth 1485   £6.50   

Pub-022- The Battle of Towton 1461 £6.00   

Pub-029- The Battle of Tewkesbury 1471£8.50

Next go to the Heraldry section and buy all of these booklets:

Pub-001   Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses Vol.1 A-H £10.00   

Pub-002   Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses Vol.2 H-R £10.00   

Pub-003   Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses Vol.3 S-Y £10.00   

Pub-004   Standards, Badges & Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses. £10.00   

Pub-005   From Knights to Squires - The Gentry & Peerage of Towton Vol.1 £8.00   

Pub-042   From Knights to Squires - The Gentry & Peerage of Towton Vol.2 £8.00   

The Lance and Longbow Society Shop:
https://lanceandlongbow.com/shopPublications.php

This is going to form the beginning of your research. You can then branch out into more detailed work.

As you can imagine, there is a great deal of literature on the subject. The secret is, like any project, to nail down the basics first.

Hope that helps?

[bigredbat]

Little Big Men do some nice livery badges...

[Atheling]

Little Big Men do some nice livery badges...

Ha! Good point Simon! I'd quite forgotten about those!

Citadel Six do livery badges too though I can't speak to their quality as I have never owned any.

Little Big Man Livery Badges:
https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/product-category/28mm-transfers/wars-of-the-roses/

Citadel Six Livery Badges "Lancastrian":
http://www.citadelsix.co.uk/lancs%20livery%20badges.html

Citadel Six Livery Badges "Yorkist":
http://www.citadelsix.co.uk/Yorkist%20Livery%20Badges.html

I would still advise buying all the Freezywater publications from the Lance and Longbow Society as they will give you an excellent overview of who was at which battle, what their personal Heraldic arms were, their personal Standard (if they have one) and their Livery Banners too.

[rivers3162]

For the Lancastrians, there are a few families who were pretty staunch in their loyalties whose livery colours would be useful for a number of battles; the Beauforts, Cliffords and Tudors spring to mind. The Percies too as they can be used for Bosworth.

On the Yorkist side the main ones would probably be Edward IV and the Nevilles (Fauconberg, Salisbury, Warwick). Gloucester/Richard III would also be a good one and you could use white Yorkist roses as livery badges for more mileage. In terms of other nobles, the Howards and Herberts were Yorkist and would do service for multiple battles, as would Lord Hastings

[MaleGriffin]

Thank you all for your responses!

OK, my advice for a beginner would be to go to the Lance and Longbow Society shop and buy all of these booklets:

I was unfamiliar with the Lance and Longbow Society so thank you very much for the suggestions and links.

For the Lancastrians, there are a few families who were pretty staunch in their loyalties whose livery colours would be useful for a number of battles; the Beauforts, Cliffords and Tudors spring to mind. The Percies too as they can be used for Bosworth.

On the Yorkist side the main ones would probably be Edward IV and the Nevilles (Fauconberg, Salisbury, Warwick). Gloucester/Richard III would also be a good one and you could use white Yorkist roses as livery badges for more mileage. In terms of other nobles, the Howards and Herberts were Yorkist and would do service for multiple battles, as would Lord Hastings

Thank you rivers3162! This is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for!

Ha! Good point Simon! I'd quite forgotten about those!

Citadel Six do livery badges too though I can't speak to their quality as I have never owned any.

Little Big Man Livery Badges:
https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/product-category/28mm-transfers/wars-of-the-roses/

Citadel Six Livery Badges "Lancastrian":
http://www.citadelsix.co.uk/lancs%20livery%20badges.html

Citadel Six Livery Badges "Yorkist":
http://www.citadelsix.co.uk/Yorkist%20Livery%20Badges.html

I would still advise buying all the Freezywater publications from the Lance and Longbow Society as they will give you an excellent overview of who was at which battle, what their personal Heraldic arms were, their personal Standard (if they have one) and their Livery Banners too.

Are these decals or paper banners? If the badges are decals, do the standards/banners work like decals and stick to themselves or like traditional paper flags that you cut out and glue together?

Once again I appreciate the advice!

[Atheling]

Thank you all for your responses!
I was unfamiliar with the Lance and Longbow Society so thank you very much for the suggestions and links.

Thank you rivers3162! This is exactly the kind of information I'm looking for!
Are these decals or paper banners? If the badges are decals, do the standards/banners work like decals and stick to themselves or like traditional paper flags that you cut out and glue together?

Little Big Men are rub on decals. I'm not familiar with the Citadel Six but they are definitely decals too.

Once again I appreciate the advice!

No probs. Happy to help

[Captain Blood]

Pete’s Flags are outstanding - only for sale via eBay - but he has a good selection of flag sheets for assorted WOTR nobles. Might not be a bad place to start, if you want your armies to look great under gaily streaming banners and fluttering flags. Pick the lords with the best looking banners!

I also had a wonderful pdf which gave all the known main participants, their active dates and which battles they fought in, and their livery colours. Extremely useful. Except I can’t find it now on my tablet…   

But I’m sure someone will know what I’m talking about and furnish the link 

[Thew2]

Another useful source is the Towton Battlefield website.

https://www.towton.org.uk/research/

There are two lists under the research page, one for all known combatants, and the battles they fought at, and one for the participants at Towton.

The second one is useful as it identifies who fought in which great nobles retinue, so you could theme your knightly choices around a particular nobleman, like Somerset or Northumberland. 

If you wanted to include Conyers for example, he was a follower of Warwick, so it might make sense to paint Warwick, and choose another three of his most colourful followers.

I think Warwick is a good choice for the Yorkists. Scrope of Bolton is another pro Warwick survivor who is very active across the decades.

The Percy family is my favoured Lancastrian family, but I would suggest one to consider is Exeter. He survived a surprisingly long time, considering how much everyone seems to have disliked him, and he actually fought on the same side as Warwick at Barnet, if you wanted to combine your forces for a larger game.

Good luck with you research and collecting! It's a great period with lots of interesting characters.

[George1863]

As well as Lance & Longbow, the Richard III Society website has lots of information about livery and the personalities of the era in free downloadable pdfs. For what it's worth, my 15mm armies are of the Bosworth era, which allows the Cat, the Rat, Lovell our dog and the Hog himself (livery being Sir William Catesby - white; Sir Richard Ratcliffe - white/black; Viscount Lovell - blue/yellow; Richard III - murrey/blue). The later era permits fielding a number of continental mercenary units, including Scots, French, Flemings and early Landsknechts, though the appearance of the pike-armed German mercenaries at Bosworth is a can of worms often debated by wargamers over the years. The advantage of 15mm miniatures, of course, is that the small details of heraldry (badges on the surcoat, for instance) are unnecessary for overall appeal.

Good luck with your WOTR project. I am a staunch Ricardian and so picked units who opposed the despicable, murderous Tudors. It's as good a reason as any.

[George1863]

PS. Have a look ar 'murreyandblue@wordpress.com' for a very good list of livery colours for many of the bloody participants.

[Atheling]

PS. Have a look ar 'murreyandblue@wordpress.com' for a very good list of livery colours for many of the bloody participants.

Seriously, nearly all the major and minor nobility are listed in the Freezywater books for *all* of the battles. Their Standards, Heraldic Banners and Livery Banners are available. It is s truly invaluable resource if you're into the Wars of the Roses. What's more, they're cheap.

[fred]

I’ve used the citadel six livery badges, and they are small decals. They work pretty well, but can be a bit fragile.

I found I used far less then I was expecting, as on my mainly Perry plastics, I found that on lots of figures the spot to but the badge was obscured or blocked. I’d have to have a look at the figures to see what sort of ratio it was, but it was far from 1 front and 1 back per figure.