Good scaleable ruleset for migration era / dark age battles

[WorkShy]

So, after a 15-20 year break, I'm about 3 months into my re-entry into wargaming miniatures.

My colleagues and I have been targeting 300-500 minis per army (Late Roman/Romano-British, Germanic, Irish, Pict etc) based on all our prior experience that was WFB or WAB.  Frankly, progress has been frustratingly slow. I've only done 120 infantry and 60 cavalry over 3 months. It seems my run rate is about 2 infantry/hour and 1 cav/hour. As you can see my painting isn’t very good (nor is my ability to take photos of them) but I’m just trying to get them to what might be nebulously termed “tabletop standard”.

So while we continue to grind away at the painting, what’s a good ruleset that would work with small numbers <200 per side on a 6x4 table but then scale well up to 500+ per side on a 12x6 table?

The market seems so fragmented these days with too many different rule sets. Moreover, so little support for them. Is it Swordpoint? Hail Caesar? Dux Bellorum? Impetus? Or do we just stick with WAB using the Age of Arthur supplement?

[SJWi]

Workshy, you might want to check out James Morris' Midgard rules. I don't exactly know if they have been released yet but I think they are aimed at the period and size of gaming you are looking at. There is an earlier thread on this part of Lead adventure called "Degastan, Partizan" which gives a report from last month's Partizan show where he ran a game using the rules. Speaking to him at Partizan last October he sees them as picking up where WAB left off .  I have an early playtest copy and they are quite interesting. I plan to use them for my Bronze Age Europeans.     

[Pattus Magnus]

I think maybe you’re being too hard on yourself regarding painting productivity and quality- 120 infantry and 60 cavalry over a three month period seems quite productive (especially if that’s consistent and you’re not burning yourself out), and there’s nothing wrong with the quality of the figures in the photo you posted. I could be biased, though, as my painting isn’t any better than yours and 200 figures is about the largest army I’ve put together so far (and most are smaller).

As for rules, I like To the Strongest for large games, and I’ve had fun with Hail Caesar. Midgard will probably be released later this year (I’m play testing when I can), and it looks like a really good option. If your group enjoyed WAB with the Age of Arthur supplements, going with that in the short term seems like it would be a good option. With the figures you already have painted, you could already play a small game or two with those rules.

[Atheling]

OK, personally speaking WAB is still fine for the period. We still play WAB at our club, in fact it is the ancients rules of choice! Even to this very day!

As well as To the Strongest I would like to add Swordpoint by Gripping Beast as it is very much focused on the line of battle concept and has the feel of a Late Roman/Sub Roman/Early Medieval fight.

There's also Sword and Spear but despite being kindly sent a set of the rules by Great Escape Games I have been unable to play due to Covid etc. Perhaps someone else can jump in here?

Midgard by James Morris who wrote the (two of the very best) El Cid and Age of Arthur WAB supplements is currently working very hard on his Midgard set which promises to be a great set. So far he has used the rules for First Age of Middle Earth, El Cid and the HYW so the rules are definitely holding up!

[Easy E]

Well, that army size is much bigger than I would use!  I would be pretty happy with the 120 and 60 numbers you quote.

Here is my review of Dux Bellorum, and might help you get your hear around it a bit.....
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/2016/12/review-dux-bellorum-osprey-wargame.html

Personally, I am a big fan of that ruleset. 

[MaleGriffin]

Looking good! I guess it's like riding a bicycle... once you learn, you never forget.

[SJWi]

I can't comment properly on either Dux Bellorum or Sword and Spear as I haven't played them but both have good reputations. Unlike some Osprey sets which I find quite poor Dux is based on an earlier set called "Glutter of Ravens" so has quite a long history. I have read Sword and Spear v2 and it seemed to flow nicely. The only reason I didn't try it was that I am a big fan of To The Strongest and have invested a lot of time and money into it, and couldn't see the point of having to learn a new set. "If it ain't broke don't fix it"!

From what I know of Midgard it places more emphasis on leaders and characters than most other rule sets, and hence may suit the "Dark Age" period quite well. Sets such as "To the Strongest" do have leaders and heroes but they are quite generic.       

[Dr. Zombie]

Since no one else has mentioned it. I thought I would throw in the Swiss armyknife of rules - Lions Rampant. You can use that for everything. It is highly customizable. The rules are solid and you can easily add the flavor of your favorite place and period to it.

[Silent Invader]

Since no one else has mentioned it. I thought I would throw in the Swiss armyknife of rules - Lions Rampant. You can use that for everything. It is highly customizable. The rules are solid and you can easily add the flavor of your favorite place and period to it.

I’d endorse that. Easy to learn, lots of fun, the game can to-and-fro for added tension, etc.

[SJWi]

Hi, Lion Rampant aren't my favourite set of rules but I won't knock them. Lots of people like them including one of my mates. However I would point out that  if you go for them, version 2 is due for release next month so you might want to wait.

Regards

[WorkShy]

I did see the Partizan post by James Morris. His new system may well be ideal but it's not out, so it's all hypothetical right now. We'll check it out when it's published.

I'm not sure about Mersey's Dux Bellorum and Lion Rampant. Are DB/Lion just polished Glutters of Ravens? I've still got a copy of that. While I liked it, neither cavalry, skirmishers or missile troops really added much.  Possibly realistic, but a bit one dimensional. It was also a relatively small game. Would it scale up well? Nonetheless, at £10 for DB, I'll buy a copy anyway. Another Dark Age book to go on the shelf.

I think we have a better idea of what we don't want. Basically, anything that smells like DBA or anything that is a skirmish type games like Saga or Baron's War. Seems though that DBx clones and skirmish games are the new fashion. No single figure basing, very few minis, small tables etc . Clubs around London seem to only play l'Art de la Guerre which feels like just another version of DBx.

I'm glad that someone still plays WAB. In 2007, I'd have put money on WAB being one of the two most dominant ancient wargaming systems by 2022 (with some DBx variant). I was surprised to see it had died a death. I suppose I was wondering what was the heir to WAB? Is is Priestley's Hail Caesar (or even Warmaster) or Swordpoint? Clash of Empires? To the Strongest etc. Just too many to read all of them.

Our fallback is very much to use WAB Age of Arthur, with some bits borrowed from Fall of the West and Shieldwall, since we all have those supplements. Perhaps that is still the best option until Midgard comes out.

[Hobgoblin]

Lion Rampant's great, but it is a skirmish game, and it's definitely not a game for hundreds of figures a side. It tends to use a few more figures than Saga, but it's in that ball-park - four to six units of six to twelve figures a side. You can play with bigger forces, of course, but it does play best at the size it was written for - otherwise, failed activations tend to preclude large sections of each army from taking much part.

[Atheling]

I did see the Partizan post by James Morris. His new system may well be ideal but it's not out, so it's all hypothetical right now. We'll check it out when it's published.

I'm not sure about Mersey's Dux Bellorum

The thing to remember about Dux Bellorum is that units can be made much larger if you're playing on a larger table. An oft forgotten fact with Dux Bellorum methinks.

[SotF]

Lion Rampant's great, but it is a skirmish game, and it's definitely not a game for hundreds of figures a side. It tends to use a few more figures than Saga, but it's in that ball-park - four to six units of six to twelve figures a side. You can play with bigger forces, of course, but it does play best at the size it was written for - otherwise, failed activations tend to preclude large sections of each army from taking much part.

With Lion Rampant, you can easily mess with things for far larger forces without much work. Just increase what counts for a base figure into a larger group.

You'll have larger groups clashing, casualty rates remain about the same so if it's an x10 game, you'll have 10 casualties each time you would normally lose one.

I haven't done it with Lion Rampant, but I have with Dragon Rampant...

[Pattus Magnus]

Just to be clear, Dux Bellorum and Lion Rampant use completely different game systems. Dux is the adaptation of Glutter of Ravens, and Lion Rampant was the first iteration of the “large skirmish” rules that have been adapted in Dan Mersey’s other Osprey titles.

I like both, but they’re aimed at different sorts of games.