*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
August 20, 2022, 05:52:59 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Donate

We Appreciate Your Support

Members
  • Total Members: 9715
  • Latest: Akrim
Stats
  • Total Posts: 1588698
  • Total Topics: 111157
  • Online Today: 392
  • Online Ever: 1675
  • (December 28, 2020, 04:48:59 PM)
Users Online

Recent

Author Topic: Help for Falklands War British helmets in 1:72  (Read 597 times)

Offline italwars

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1019
Help for Falklands War British helmets in 1:72
« on: July 03, 2022, 12:37:11 AM »
Hello
as title said..i'm a bit confused about which helmets were used in battle by British troops in 1982..i'm aware  that's a difficult topic to answer and recently surfing trough the web has generated me even more doubts...the excellent Winter of 79 blog/site belonging to a wargamer present here at LAF forum has been, until now, my only reliable and best source..but i'm still very confused about this difficult theme...adding to that, in case of figures suggestions, i m buiding an Army in 1:72 , 20mm and, above all, with the exception of special forces and some nice metal castings in beret that 've been already painted and used for small skirmish actions, the  bulk of my wargame units for the big battles will  be recruited   out of plastics with mixed metal bits (some of the heads, heavy weapons ecc..)..so beside converting or using those those  few (Matchbox/ACTA ecc) available stuff..i 'll ve no problem in making conversions from various ranges by swapping heads and provide right weapons. I must admit  that i enjoy more the conversion than the painting phase.

until now  i selected minis from ESCI NATO troops, Matchbox NATO Paras and ACTA British Inf. of 1970's...Even Modern British Infantry from Revel could be a supply, maybe, of M76 British paras helmets  maybe?.. Not to forget my beloved Airfix old WW2 paratroops of which i have plenty and  which  are provided with  a sort of helmet that is identical, at that scale, to the last retooled/modernised airborne troops of 1950/70? ..maybe it was still in use in 1982?, maybe with added pieces of scrim?, and maybe it has been  used in the Falklands not only by the paras but also by Royal Marines?..and that lead to the question of which was the helmet used by  Royal Marines?..i do 'nt think it was the old MK4 "Squattie" type. Even those heads from Orion 1990's Russians and those from IDF's infantry/paras maybe  could be used for representing  British dove type 1982 para helmets or other models ?

In short may i know please  your ideas/suggestions  about the helmet types sported by the following units and, if possible, which heads could i select (possibly in plastic) for :
- Paras
- Royal Marines
- maybe also Guards (even if i've  read that in order to avoid to be confused they retained, during action, sand berets and possibly cold weather hats/ caps)

i 'm positive about the fact that the only hassle-free solution would be to simply have my minis retain or adquire a beret (as are depicted the majority minis for that period both in metal or plastic) ..i would accept to let have them for second line troops, mortar crews, HQs, but, for the sake of historical correctnes and variety,  i 've envisaged to equip at least a sufficient proportion of my minis with helmets

thanks in advance for your suggestions

PS: i'm always happy to correspond on that subject with other wargamers possibly British..i've now pooled a substantial library about land battles including quite a few and difficult to find books in Spanish from Argentina with plenty of maps and battle orders - action desciptions- Argentinian units histories  ecc..infos in Spanish that i'll be pleased, in case of need , to sum up, translate in English and  share 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 02:18:14 AM by italwars »

Offline fred

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 3538
    • Miniature Gaming
Re: Help for Falklands War British helmets in 1:72
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2022, 07:45:09 AM »
Worth a look at the Pendraken Falklands range https://www.pendraken.co.uk/british-767-c.asp While in 10mm so not directly useable, it is a recent range, and was researched with vets of the conflict and those with contemporary British army knowledge.

From a quick look, lots of berets! Helmets with loads of scrim

Personally I’d avoid the venerable* Airfix British Airborne figures - they weren’t great 40 years ago and haven’t got any better!


*edit, wrote vulnerable, met venerable, but the first word probably applies too!
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 01:52:52 PM by fred »

Offline Jemima Fawr

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1357
    • Jemima Fawr's Miniature Wargames Blog
Re: Help for Falklands War British helmets in 1:72
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2022, 11:16:34 AM »
The Paras were wearing a mixture of the WW2-era HSAT (Helmet Steel Airborne Troop) Mk 2 and the new M76 Para Helmet.  The M76 was of GRP rather than steel construction and was recognisable by the raised front-rim.

Everyone else had standard Mk 4 steel helmets that were externally identical to the Mk 3 first issued in 1944 (invariably covered in hessian, then scrim then garnish).

I wargame with a couple of RM Falklands veterans (42 Cdo), so have just asked the question re the prevalence (or otherwise) of ex-RAC helmets and of Green Lids in action.  Awaiting reply.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 11:37:20 AM by Jemima Fawr »
Suffering from insomnia?  Too much excitement in your life?  Jemima Fawr's Miniature Wargames Blog might be just the solution you've been looking for: www.jemimafawr.co.uk

Offline Jemima Fawr

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1357
    • Jemima Fawr's Miniature Wargames Blog
Re: Help for Falklands War British helmets in 1:72
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2022, 11:21:39 AM »
I should add that Paras often wore Mk 3 or Mk 4 helmets in Northern Ireland, but that was due to the fact that a perspex face-shield could be fitted to that type of helmet when engaged on internal security operations.  For war-fighting operations they always wore Para helmets.

Oh and the Guards beret was khaki, not sand.  Only the SAS wore sand berets.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 11:23:15 AM by Jemima Fawr »

Offline italwars

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1019
Re: Help for Falklands War British helmets in 1:72
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2022, 08:30:44 PM »
Thanks Jemina and Fred..all good and practical clues ...thanks to those first answers, doubts about which helmets were in use by British Paras are solved!  ...of course only SAS used sand berets!!...all the rest of Infantry used obviously  kaki ones... sorry for my sloppy choice of English words
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 08:35:45 PM by italwars »

Offline Jemima Fawr

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1357
    • Jemima Fawr's Miniature Wargames Blog
Re: Help for Falklands War British helmets in 1:72
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2022, 08:54:45 PM »
My resident Booty got back to me.  :D

He says that at the 'sharp end' they all wore Green Lids, which surprised me. However, he saw a lot of the HQ, support and echelon lads (ironically) wearing 'Para helmets', which would have been the WW2 RAC pattern that was then supplied to the RN and RM.  It had the same steel bowl as the Airborne HSAT, but a different liner and simple chinstrap.

Offline Jemima Fawr

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1357
    • Jemima Fawr's Miniature Wargames Blog
Re: Help for Falklands War British helmets in 1:72
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2022, 08:55:33 PM »
Thanks Jemina and Fred..all good and practical clues ...thanks to those first answers, doubts about which helmets were in use by British Paras are solved!  ...of course only SAS used sand berets!!...all the rest of Infantry used obviously  kaki ones... sorry for my sloppy choice of English words

Funnily enough, the background colours on this forum are a good guide to the two colours!  lol

Offline Rick F

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 421
Re: Help for Falklands War British helmets in 1:72
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2022, 09:31:28 PM »
My resident Booty got back to me.  :D

He says that at the 'sharp end' they all wore Green Lids, which surprised me. However, he saw a lot of the HQ, support and echelon lads (ironically) wearing 'Para helmets', which would have been the WW2 RAC pattern that was then supplied to the RN and RM.  It had the same steel bowl as the Airborne HSAT, but a different liner and simple chinstrap.
Makes sense, HQ areas are much more prone to artillery fire than troops assaulting the enemy, a steel helmet doesn't provide much protection against small arms but is great against splinters. RM and Scots Guards wore berets during their assaults as a recognition method as well, the Paras were more used to wearing helmets at that time so wore them during their battles. RM have never been that keen on helmets anyway.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 09:50:12 PM by Rick F »

Offline italwars

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1019
Re: Help for Falklands War British helmets in 1:72
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2022, 09:52:09 PM »
Excellent Jemina ..thanks also for having been  so kind to make an enquiry for me..thanks Rick
so i've just discovered that Green Lid stay for RM beret  :)..the rest of info is really precious i should immediatly write a note with some diagrams and put in my Falklands British minis wood box which contain the castings at various painting stages...
the way in which you describe those Royal Marines uniqueness and style reminds me what i read from quite a few Argentine sources from veterans that faced them...it seems that  they behaved in the most professional and pragmatic way during the action but were also the most stylish and right after the action ended...including the good treatment of prisoners...it's also new and interesting for me reading, among British sources, that they  were perceived by the rest of UK armed forces as a sort of snobbish corps...that's a feature that i really like :-) and is among the reasons why my first skirmish once i'll be able to set up a decent scaled landscape (i've got all the rest including Puma helicopter and a passable Argentine ship)) should be the defence of Grytviken-South Georgia..in that ocasion i know all my RM minis will sport the green beret....thanks again for your precious infos,
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 10:07:07 PM by italwars »

Offline carlos marighela

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 9394
Re: Help for Falklands War British helmets in 1:72
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2022, 10:46:05 PM »
I recall reading somewhere that for the mountain battles, the beret or other soft forms of head wear were the order of the day. These were night battles and it was felt that the silhouette of the helmet was too similar to that of the Argentines. Certainly the photos of Mt Longdon including O groups suggest the helmet was not being carried by the marines. Similar story with the Scots Guards at Tumbledown. Given that there was some fairly heavy shelling after the battle, you would assume that if helmets were carried they would be available and visible.

On the other hand there are  well known photos of Paras on Two Sisters, immediately after the battle showing pretty much everyone in helmets. The Ghurkas seem to be the unit with the most photographic images of Mk 4 helmets in evidence.
Flamengo: Campeões brasileiros 2019, 2020.  Copa Libertadores 2019. Supercopa do Brasil, 2020, 2021

Mais de 40 milhões de torcedores, somos uma nação.

Eu sempre te amarei
Onde estiver estarei
Oh meu Mengooo

Tu és time de tradição,
RAÇA, AMOR e PAIXÃO
Oh meu Mengooo!

Offline Golgotha

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1743
    • BMC Miniatures - All things wargame related.
Re: Help for Falklands War British helmets in 1:72
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2022, 10:55:46 PM »
Helmets aside what are you going to be using for 1/72 Argentinian forces?

This chaps blog may well help provide some inspiration https://dougieswargamingblog.blogspot.com/search/label/Falklands
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 11:03:02 PM by Golgotha »

Offline italwars

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1019
Re: Help for Falklands War British helmets in 1:72
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2022, 11:22:00 PM »
Thanks for your contribution CM ..i saw those picts after Tumbledown ..in fact they also sport some cold weather hats which, with their ear flaps aren’t the most comfortable to use in battle..many kaki berets even if I suspect that being the Guards a classical infantry units maybe they also used some old MK4 helmets?!? In one painting some rear echelon stretcher bearers returning from Tumbledown are wearing helmets ..

Golgotha thanks I know the link but, as opposite to him, my armies in20mn are based on low budget..anyway a great source.. I should post some picts of my current conversions attempts ..for the Argentinians  I already purchased quite a few metals from former Hotspur miniatures with the right M1 helmet but I still need the majority (and they are many) mortar and HMG crewmen..I’ll also use some proxies such as Revel US WW2 infantry..(notably the HMGs group)some ACTA 1970 British with some putty added for their winter jacket would do the job..I’ve to convert many plastic or metal US WW2 helmets by adding milliput goggles ..i ve also successfully converted some Airfix US Marines (early issue)..majority of weapons on conversions are Wee Friends or similar metal SLRs or GPMGs of which I still need many..finally I read from a diary written  by an Argentine 25 th infantry regiment veteran of the battle of Goose Green that being elites they fought that day with the greenish (brown-green) beret..I’m almost sure it’s a true evidence because while retiring from first line they were fired upon by their own conscript  comrades  from another regiment that didn’t realize that those troops without helmets were, in fact, Argentinians . Probably just a small sub unit but it’ll save me from create out of green stuff some other googles over other beheaded M1 helmets :-)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 05:01:01 AM by italwars »

Offline Golgotha

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1743
    • BMC Miniatures - All things wargame related.
Re: Help for Falklands War British helmets in 1:72
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2022, 10:00:08 AM »
Please do show more I am very keen to see your project develop as I am also hoping to do 1/72 Falklands. I am also trying to do it on a limited budget and relatively small in size...

You can find some 1/72 Falkland card stock buildings here, fee to download: http://cardmodelsbytony.weebly.com/falklands-buildings.html

Offline sandsmodels

  • Librarian
  • Posts: 189
    • s&s models
Re: Help for Falklands War British helmets in 1:72
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2022, 10:54:01 AM »
do you want just heads?
www.sandsmodels.com
sales@sandsmodels.com
makers of 20mm and 28mm vehicles, guns, figures and buildings for the gamer.


 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
27 Replies
9203 Views
Last post October 03, 2010, 01:33:57 PM
by anevilgiraffe
12 Replies
3005 Views
Last post June 07, 2012, 04:21:28 PM
by SgtMcNab
5 Replies
1838 Views
Last post July 18, 2012, 10:40:38 AM
by jazbo
3 Replies
1626 Views
Last post January 06, 2014, 10:21:01 AM
by Bergh
10 Replies
875 Views
Last post June 13, 2022, 04:45:09 PM
by hayeswauford