Xenos Rampant is coming!

[Hobgoblin]

Recon with fire support look like a good match for an elite unit.  6 points, hit on a 4+ anywhere in sight but can’t be targeted over 12”

Hmm ... I'm not sure about that; the Fire Support action only succeeds on 8+, and it can't be taken as a Skirmish action. And if the Recon Infantry unit is in the open when the Elite unit gets within 12", you'd expect the Elites to wipe them out with one volley (and probably even with one below-average volley, given the negative modifiers for the courage test).

All in all, you'd probably only get a couple of Fire Support strikes in at best before the Elites closed in, still (typical) above half-strength. And if the Recon unit has to move into cover earlier in the game, that's a turn or two where they won't be calling down Fire Support. Also, 8+ for Fire Support is turnover central!

Now, I'm sure that you could get lots of great game (and game-changing) situations involving Recon Infantry and Fire Support. It looks a really interesting combination for the game. But a basic Elite unit still looks to be a lot more bang for your buck (just as fast, much harder to kill, and much more offensive power with free Shoot and Attack actions). I reckon Recon + Fire Support would be good value at 4 points relative to the 6 for Elite.

[Storm Wolf]

So the answer to an Elite unit is wait for it...............another Elite unit.

Elite units seem to very much like Dreadnought battleships, the only reply to them was another Battleship or a horde of MBTs or later an Aircraft carrier. M`mm that's got me thinking of playing a naval game with the rules or even BattleTech, but I digress.

Maybe each side should only be allowed 0-1 Elite unit (max 12pts with upgrades) per 24pts spend, after all if they are the elite they are not going to be plentiful (Yes, even Space Marines) as they have a whole planet to defeat.

I have only briefly tried a 24pt game of Chaos Marines (2 Elite SMU or 2RMU units) and 2 Light infantry units (10 cultists (I think)) V.s 4 Elite 1 or 2MU Space Marines, but the Elites pretty much chewed through every other non-elite target. This is only right and proper, but it has put me off the game a bit (at least for using it as a 40K analogue) I think One Page Rules Grimdark Future does a much better job of this, but for other non-40K games it may be ok. But I still don't really like the vehicle rules, but I admit I've not yet tried them.

Oh well more experiments later, happy gaming in 2023 everyone

Glen

[Silent Invader]

So the answer to an Elite unit is wait for it...............another Elite unit.

That did make me laugh   

Yesterday I statted-up a 5 squad Task Force of my dwarf ‘Colonial Marines’. I was pleased to be able to arrive at a mix of core unit types and ‘extra’ rules that reflect the perceived role of each squad, while coming in at a total of 24 points. I’ve not played them yet and I’ve also yet to stat-up their primary opposition. None of them are elite units, though I will have a dwarf Jedi-like figure to add idc, who’ll likely be Elite but with Close Quarter Doctrine.

I must admit I haven’t delved too much into the maths, preferring instead to focus on my background story and what options are appropriate to it. From what I’ve recently read in this thread, I doubt I’d fair at all well against a player fielding a full force of tooled-up elites simply because they could, but tbh that’s an unlikely situation as the people I play with are generally interested in exploring the scenario/story rather than points-maximisation for the win.

Each to their own of course, and some players will want a maxed-out force, which kinda makes me think of the suited-up Martian Marines in The Expanse, who could pretty much defeat everything (apart from proto-molecule enhanced opposition, if I’m remembering it correctly). In which case, it seems to me that there’s still fun to be had from losing, it’s just a matter of trying to contain the losses.

[TWD]

We've only played a handful of games, but I think the "answer" to Elite units may be to play the scenarios from the book. In a straight fight the Elite units are very hard to deal with, but with only three units on the table you'll struggle to fulfil the objectives of some of the scenarios.

[jon_1066]

Hmm ... I'm not sure about that; the Fire Support action only succeeds on 8+, and it can't be taken as a Skirmish action. And if the Recon Infantry unit is in the open when the Elite unit gets within 12", you'd expect the Elites to wipe them out with one volley (and probably even with one below-average volley, given the negative modifiers for the courage test).

All in all, you'd probably only get a couple of Fire Support strikes in at best before the Elites closed in, still (typical) above half-strength. And if the Recon unit has to move into cover earlier in the game, that's a turn or two where they won't be calling down Fire Support. Also, 8+ for Fire Support is turnover central!

Now, I'm sure that you could get lots of great game (and game-changing) situations involving Recon Infantry and Fire Support. It looks a really interesting combination for the game. But a basic Elite unit still looks to be a lot more bang for your buck (just as fast, much harder to kill, and much more offensive power with free Shoot and Attack actions). I reckon Recon + Fire Support would be good value at 4 points relative to the 6 for Elite.

Agreed.  Crunching some numbers nothing is as good as Elite Infantry, full stop.  They out perform everything, mostly due to that 4+ to hit with free shoot.   Even if you can get them in an advantageous firefight (eg Support infantry at 24") they are so flexible they can simply change what they are doing - they don't need to sit there and take it. 

[Silent Invader]

Agreed.  Crunching some numbers nothing is as good as Elite Infantry, full stop.  They out perform everything, mostly due to that 4+ to hit with free shoot.   Even if you can get them in an advantageous firefight (eg Support infantry at 24") they are so flexible they can simply change what they are doing - they don't need to sit there and take it.

But for a unit-type described in the rules as being not “just the best soldiers in the army, these are the best soldiers in the Galaxy”, perhaps that’s about right.

[jon_1066]

But for a unit-type described in the rules as being not “just the best soldiers in the army, these are the best soldiers in the Galaxy”, perhaps that’s about right.

...but cost not much more to equip and train than a bunch of Orcs?

Their combat performance is right, just the cost to field them is wrong.  If they are going to be that good they need to be more expensive and hence a lot rarer 

[Silent Invader]

...but cost not much more to equip and train than a bunch of Orcs?

Their combat performance is right, just the cost to field them is wrong.  If they are going to be that good they need to be more expensive and hence a lot rarer

I do get that.

I suppose I see XR as a friends-vs-friends fun game, so it doesn’t really bother me. That said, playing with mates I can foresee a campaign game where a much weaker force might need to be played against say 3 elites*, with the weaker player just trying not to be slaughtered. I’m not sure such a game would be within the rules if the Elite were priced at their true worth. Each to their own of course. 

Eg: 3 Jedi versus shed-loads of Storm Troopers.

[jon_1066]

I think you could already do that with 8 point Elites.  12 units of heavy infantry vs the Jedi.  It’s going to be a slaughter for sure.

The rules had so much promise but I really feel they have sort of hit the post with them.  It sort of looks like the rules George Lucas would have come up with for those ridiculous prequel battle scenes.

[religon]

We've only played a handful of games, but I think the "answer" to Elite units may be to play the scenarios from the book. In a straight fight the Elite units are very hard to deal with, but with only three units on the table you'll struggle to fulfil the objectives of some of the scenarios.

Any good scenarios to recommend? I have been randomly rolling and many seem to be quite unbalanced against the force trying to move. (Alpha is an obvious exception.)

[Mr. White]

The rules had so much promise but I really feel they have sort of hit the post with them.  It sort of looks like the rules George Lucas would have come up with for those ridiculous prequel battle scenes.

Is it just under-costed Elites that's the perceived issue? Seems a small fix.

[jon_1066]

Not just that but it sort of doesn’t feel different enough to LR?  Eg keeping the same unit types, the underwhelming vehicle rules, the over emphasis on melee.  It’s basically LR in space in the way 40k was WFB in space.  It could have been that much more.

Eg emphasise cover, situational awareness and leadership.  These are the core of a modern battlefield.  If you are seen you’re basically dead.  This could have been emphasised in the rules.  Likewise the infantry, armour, artillery triangle.  A sort of modern rock paper scissors where each needs the other.  The Elite is a symptom of what’s wrong.  You don’t need any other unit type, just send in elites.  There is no counter, then a counter to that counter.

[Major_Gilbear]

I realise that Elite units are the "best of the best in the whole galaxy", but there does seem to be a pretty big gap between them and the next unit down on the power scale (Heavy Infantry). This feels a bit awkward when you're wanting to field an elite force that's still great, but not quite pinnacle-of-the glactic-scale good.

I wonder if dropping the free actions and reducing Elites to 5pt baseline would help, and then allow them to buy back each of the free actions at an extra point cost (say 2pts each action) as part of the optional upgrades? They already have a great statline all-round, so even without the two free actions, Elite units are still highly reliable and competent troops. Buying back both free actions raises them to 9pts (a 50% cost increase on where they are currently), which again feels about right for what are supposed to be such incredible and (presumably rare) troops that you don't even need to risk a failed activation ordering them for most of the game.

The bigger hole in the rules for me is the very basic treatment of vehicles.  I hope there might be a supplement planned that treats vehicles much more thoroughly, to replace the basic efforts in the core book. I do understand the emphasis is on infantry for this game, but the current vehicle rules feel very much like a reluctant afterthought unfortunately. This is a shame, as wacky/improbable/exotic vehicles are very much a sci-fi staple in a great many cases.


@ jon_1066:

I think that what you want to emphasise would then pigeonhole the overall game rules of XR into something that would then be difficult to fit Space Opera or sci-fi Weird WW2 elements into. For years I wanted something that was "hard" sci-fi combat (lethal, and with emphasis on cover and ranged combat), but that still allowed for more Space Opera elements in it... Infinity came closest to that I think, but I came to realise that those two things just didn't really mix all that well, and that wanting a ruleset to do both well was largely therefore futile. XR tends more to what I might call "film sci-fi", which allows it to dabble in most things a bit, and that's fine if you just want to get models down on the table for an hour or two of fun that's not too taxing. For your purposes, the upcoming Ambush Alley Games ruleset (currently working under the name "Next War", and designed to replace the OOP and rather incomplete "Tomorrow's War") might be much more your speed. 

[Silent Invader]

I wonder if dropping the free actions and reducing Elites to 5pt baseline would help, and then allow them to buy back each of the free actions at an extra point cost (say 2pts each action) as part of the optional upgrades? They already have a great statline all-round, so even without the two free actions, Elite units are still highly reliable and competent troops. Buying back both free actions raises them to 9pts (a 50% cost increase on where they are currently), which again feels about right for what are supposed to be such incredible and (presumably rare) troops that you don't even need to risk a failed activation ordering them for most of the game.

That’s an interesting alternative.

[jon_1066]

@ jon_1066:

I think that what you want to emphasise would then pigeonhole the overall game rules of XR into something that would then be difficult to fit Space Opera or sci-fi Weird WW2 elements into. For years I wanted something that was "hard" sci-fi combat (lethal, and with emphasis on cover and ranged combat), but that still allowed for more Space Opera elements in it... Infinity came closest to that I think, but I came to realise that those two things just didn't really mix all that well, and that wanting a ruleset to do both well was largely therefore futile. XR tends more to what I might call "film sci-fi", which allows it to dabble in most things a bit, and that's fine if you just want to get models down on the table for an hour or two of fun that's not too taxing. For your purposes, the upcoming Ambush Alley Games ruleset (currently working under the name "Next War", and designed to replace the OOP and rather incomplete "Tomorrow's War") might be much more your speed. 

I think you are probably right.  Perhaps I should simply aim for WW2 in space as my wish list!

Well I shan't give up on Xenos but at the minute I think I'll just drop the Elite Infantry and it could still be a fun game.  After all the galaxy is a very large place so the best troops in the galaxy are surely hard to find!

Just now need to address some of the other points quirks.  eg why would heavy infantry pay 2 points to increase their close combat attack by 1?  Why take a mob when you can take a large light infantry unit with close combat and courage 5 for the same 1 point? 

I think something like Orks - Beserk Infantry.  marines (chaos or space) - Heavy infantry, Imperial Guard - light infantry, Eldar - light infantry with cloaking, don't have any Tau so don't need to worry about them, genestealers are your classic lesser xenomorphs.  That's most of my main scifi factions covered.