Hannibal's Italian Allies Samnite Armours?

[Atheling]

Hi,

I'm waiting on a few books to drop through my letterbox but in the meantime I'd like to ask what armours I should be using on my Italian allies for Hannibal's army?

I'll be using Samnites from both Crusader Miniatures and A&A Miniatures ranges.

So.....

Triple Disc armours?

Square Shaped Pectoral armours?

Moulded Italian Cuirass armours?

Or a mix of all/some of the above? If so, a mix of which armours?

Many thanks.

[Major_Gilbear]

Helmets where somewhat similar to the Greek style with cheek guards, crests, and plumes. It seems greaves weren't used much outside of ceremonial or possibly gladiatorial contexts.

For chest armour, small single disc breastplates were most common - whether this is a literal disc, or disc set in a square plate (cardiophylax). Higher-status armour was often a triple-disc cuirass, which could be fashioned in a number of different styles.

Broad belts were culturally prominent, and would have been made from a variety of materials designed to provide some abdominal protection.

[Atheling]

Helmets where somewhat similar to the Greek style with cheek guards, crests, and plumes. It seems greaves weren't used much outside of ceremonial or possibly gladiatorial contexts.

For chest armour, small single disc breastplates were most common - whether this is a literal disc, or disc set in a square plate (cardiophylax). Higher-status armour was often a triple-disc cuirass, which could be fashioned in a number of different styles.

Broad belts were culturally prominent, and would have been made from a variety of materials designed to provide some abdominal protection.

Thanks mate. so, a mix of the following?

A&A:




Crusader:

[Major_Gilbear]

Yes for all these:

A&A:




Crusader:



I'm not so sure about the "muscled" ones in this pack, but the others look fine to me:



Helmets on all of the above look good to me too. Bare feet are correct, although they do all seem to have greaves (which I guess you can hand-wave?).

Preferred Samnite weapons seem to have been spears and shortswords, so all the above models look good there too.

Shields-wise I think the large round aspis shields are "known" from various depictions in art/ceramics. There's also an account of a tall shield with a narrower lower half by a Roman historian (Livy?) but there is speculation that his is a description of a stylised "Samnite" gladiator's equipment rather than of an actual Samnite warrior's. And finally, there is speculation about a large oval scutum shield too; whether as trophies taken from Romans, or as copied from the romans, or perhaps the scutum originated with them and the Romans copied it. In any case, there is little/no archaeological evidence to conclusively support any specific type of shield, so you can either have a mixture, or pick the shape you like best for all of them. I think many miniatures collectors like the scutum or the tapered shields, as they prevent the models looking too overtly Greek.

[Atheling]

Yes for all these:

Helmets on all of the above look good to me too. Bare feet are correct, although they do all seem to have greaves (which I guess you can hand-wave?).

Preferred Samnite weapons seem to have been spears and shortswords, so all the above models look good there too.

Shields-wise I think the large round aspis shields are "known" from various depictions in art/ceramics. There's also an account of a tall shield with a narrower lower half by a Roman historian (Livy?) but there is speculation that his is a description of a stylised "Samnite" gladiator's equipment rather than of an actual Samnite warrior's. And finally, there is speculation about a large oval scutum shield too; whether as trophies taken from Romans, or as copied from the romans, or perhaps the scutum originated with them and the Romans copied it. In any case, there is little/no archaeological evidence to conclusively support any specific type of shield, so you can either have a mixture, or pick the shape you like best for all of them. I think many miniatures collectors like the scutum or the tapered shields, as they prevent the models looking too overtly Greek.

Thanks mate. I'll put an order in and tinker around with them a little (if I can find the time). I might need 5000pts worth of Carthaginians in Warhammer Ancients terms so the greaves and shield might have to stay.

[Major_Gilbear]

Well, the greaves is a grey area - not of lot of historical sources depicting Samnite warriors show them wearing any, but there is contemporary art and archaeological evidence that they did exist - hence the implication that they were not frequently worn in combat and may have just been used in more ceremonial roles. That said, a great many models and depictions show them with greaves; I expect because they did exist and they look striking. And for shields, any of the options I mentioned is perfectly legitimate.

Only the "muscle" pectoral armour feels off to me; I'm fairly sure all the modern depictions are based on perhaps one or two examples found, and which may never have been intended for actual combat use.

So don't feel bad! The models are nice, and as with so many things Ancient - we don't really know!

[Atheling]

Well, the greaves is a grey area - not of lot of historical sources depicting Samnite warriors show them wearing any, but there is contemporary art and archaeological evidence that they did exist - hence the implication that they were not frequently worn in combat and may have just been used in more ceremonial roles. That said, a great many models and depictions show them with greaves; I expect because they did exist and they look striking. And for shields, any of the options I mentioned is perfectly legitimate.

Only the "muscle" pectoral armour feels off to me; I'm fairly sure all the modern depictions are based on perhaps one or two examples found, and which may never have been intended for actual combat use.

Thanks again

So don't feel bad! The models are nice, and as with so many things Ancient - we don't really know!

A very common utterance from me when people ask about Late Med. warfare 

[Easy E]

So don't feel bad! The models are nice, and as with so many things Ancient - we don't really know!

The important key to almost all discussions about ancient military conflict. 

Use what figures you like and you can't go to far wrong!

[Porsenna]

On the topic of greaves it doesn't have to be a 'ceremonial' usage attached to them. (That word is far, far over-used in archaeology and ancient history at times...)

The simpler answer is that it's a status/social wealth/rank symbol - in a vein similar to how post Marian reform Romans treated them in regards to Centurions and Officers wearing them. (Keep in mind that the post-reform legions would have been drawing recruits from all over Italy in time, including among the Samnites. It's natural to assume that customs common in these groups would go on to become part of Roman martial culture.)

Likewise, the purpose of a tall shield is to keep attacks away from your legs, meaning that greaves become non essential for combat. While they are a wonderful "oh gak" form of insurence just in case something bad happens, I think their continued use would have been among those soldiers looking to flaunt their wealth and status while using tall shields OR among those troops using smaller shields as a matter of necessity/ preferred equipment..

[Codsticker]

Could some of Agema Minitures Etruscans (link) fit the bill:
Class II Warriors


Class III Warriors


Class VI Warriors


You can buy Italian heads and thureos shields from Agema here (link) and here (link) here.

[Atheling]

I'm not really a fan of the sculpts to be honest. They are fairly slim and would not sit well with the rest of the army, which is mainly Crusader Miniatures and A&A Miniatures.

[Codsticker]

I'm not really a fan of the sculpts to be honest. They are fairly slim and would not sit well with the rest of the army, which is mainly Crusader Miniatures and A&A Miniatures.

That is true; all Agema's stuff is fairly leggy (realistically proportioned I suppose). The crusader stuff I have is quite stocky.

[Atheling]

That is true; all Agema's stuff is fairly leggy (realistically proportioned I suppose). The crusader stuff I have is quite stocky.

Yeah, stylistically they're just too different to have in the same army. Especially when other miniatures which are more or less the same, size wise are available.

[markw]

Not a big fan of the stances from A&A they look odd. I have the Agema range and they paint up rather well.  I like you can mix and match with their plastic ranges with metal heads. Very nice

[Atheling]

Not a big fan of the stances from A&A they look odd. I have the Agema range and they paint up rather well.  I like you can mix and match with their plastic ranges with metal heads. Very nice

I'm the opposite; I love the A&A/Crusader Miniatures stuff (I'm a fan of Mark Sims sculpts) and really don't like the Agema range.