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Author Topic: Bill hooks or Big Lion Rampant?  (Read 1322 times)

Offline vodkafan

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 3532
Bill hooks or Big Lion Rampant?
« on: January 14, 2023, 01:59:57 PM »
It seems to me that if I scaled Lion Rampant up to 48 points  (about 8-10 units) that would be roughly equivalent in sizeto a 100 point army in Billhooks.  I wondered what sort of game that would give? How would they compare?
I am going to build a wargames army, a big beautiful wargames army, and Mexico is going to pay for it.

2019 Painting Challenge :
figures bought: 500+
figures painted: 57
9 vehicles painted
4 terrain pieces scratchbuilt

Offline has.been

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 8295
Re: Bill hooks or Big Lion Rampant?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2023, 05:08:38 PM »
I would be interested in the answer to this too.

Offline Ethelred the Almost Ready

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1091
Re: Bill hooks or Big Lion Rampant?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2023, 06:59:00 PM »
Hi Vodkafan.  I haven't played Billhooks, but I have been playing Big Dragon Rampant for a few years.  I used the flank rules (originally in a supplement, now in the new edition Lion Rampant rules) and split the armies into different commands.  This works rather well. 

Offline LouieN

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1121
  • "Aure entuluva!"
Re: Bill hooks or Big Lion Rampant?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2023, 08:36:15 PM »
I concur.  Lion easily ramps (pun?) up.  Would recommend activation flipping happening per command vs per side.  Allows multiple players to control their own fate (with Dice) ;)


Offline craigjonwoodfield

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 62
Re: Bill hooks or Big Lion Rampant?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2023, 08:38:53 PM »
Quite different games, with different questions to occupy the commander's mind.

LR scenarios are more dynamic, Billhooks more traditional ranks & flanks engagements. I would say that more 'happens' in a LR game, but that isn't saying that Billhooks games are dull by any means.

I play both, and enjoy both. Both are good for multiple players. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Offline vodkafan

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  • Posts: 3532
Re: Bill hooks or Big Lion Rampant?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2023, 08:53:24 PM »
Thanks all, Some very good ideas there I appreciate your replies!

Offline Captain Blood

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Re: Bill hooks or Big Lion Rampant?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2023, 03:59:35 PM »
They'd still feel like very different games, even if you had 80 - 100 figures on each side - which is pretty much standard for Billhooks and roundabout what you'd get by doubling up the usual LR points total.

I have played (and am playing) both. They both give entertaining games, with that 'emerging narrative' feel that many of us enjoy, but they are quite different sorts of games - although they do also share certain similarities.
The good thing is that both (mainly) use units of 12 and 6, so you can build and use the same forces for both sets of rules - although in Billhooks, cavalry are in units of 8 not 6.
They are both 'bucket of dice' games, and share certain other similarities. Each leader has a command radius of 12" etc.

I suppose the main differences are that:

1. Lion Rampant (and all its offspring) provides a much more freeform game. Troops are basically blobs of figures that can face, move and shoot in any direction, and cope easily with terrain and obstacles. A game of LR benefits from a table stuffed with scenery. Billhooks is much more restrictive. Units (except light cavalry and skirmishers) are strictly ranked up and can only move carefully and slowly in anything other than straight ahead. Wheeling, turning and changing formation takes actions and can cause disorder - which then takes more valuable / scarce actions to recover from. Ditto crossing obstacles. Billhooks is really designed to be played on a largely open field. It's all about manoeuvre. Whereas manoeuvre in LR is hardly a consideration at all. You just move where you want and how you want.

2. LR is more abstract. It's a set of generic rules that can be used with almost any setting or period - witness all the spin-off editions for different genres, which are essentially all the same thing with slight stylistic tweaks. Billhooks is purpose designed to provide a reasonable approximation of late medieval force composition and tactics. It has some nifty little rules like 'arrow supply' for your longbowmen, which means you have to think about where and when you use your resources.

3. Billhooks unit activation is card driven (like Muskets and Tomahawks if you've played that). The last card each turn is never used, so one leader (and his units) are likely to fail to activate every turn (although it can be one of the random bonus cards that is the last one remaining). Because of the randomness of the cards, activation usually switches backwards and forwards to either side within each turn. In LR, you can activate all your units in each turn - until you fail one activation roll, then that's your whole turn over. So if you fail to activate your first unit, your whole army of seven or eight units is stymied. Many people hate this. I quite enjoy it :) It tends to even out during the course of a game.

4. Although both are blessedly short and (at first sight) simple sets of rules, in the playing, Billhooks is much more sophisticated. It's a simple set of rules but with many cunning wrinkles and many little details that keep you on your toes. Put it this way - I've now played over a dozen games of Billhooks - which I like very much. But there are still things I get confused about and get wrong in every game. Once you've mastered LR on the other hand, it's essentially what you see is what you get. It's a way simpler and easier game to play. But clearly less 'realistic' (insofar as any wargame is ever really realistic).

5. A lot of the character detail and period colour in Billhooks comes from the leader and event cards, which introduce more random elements. In LR, you can build in some of this sort of stuff by using leader traits and so on. But you can have a perfectly straightforward game of LR without using all those optional rules. In Billhooks, this stuff is more baked in.

Honestly, they both provide very enjoyable wargames, and I like them both for different reasons. Both are scale-uppable in my experience, beyond what either set of rules is really designed for. The mechanics work just as well with multiplayer games - they just take longer!

Offline vodkafan

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Re: Bill hooks or Big Lion Rampant?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2023, 11:52:16 PM »
Thanks Captain Blood, that was another great reply and gave me much to think on.

Offline has.been

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 8295
Re: Bill hooks or Big Lion Rampant?
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2023, 07:31:41 AM »
Quote
Thanks Captain Blood, that was another great reply and gave me much to think on.

When you've 'Thought' James, let me know the result.
Then I'll know which set of rules to study first.
 :D

 

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