What models to represent Carians during Ionian Revolt and Persian Wars?

[Pattus Magnus]

I’m curious about what models to use for these folks. They have associated with the Asian Greeks for at least several hundred years at that point (and Herodotus claims they invented some military kit the Greeks use), so would the models just be Greek hoplites? Is there any evidence for them using  distinguishing features or modified hoplite equipment?

Any advice would be great!

[David H]

Given the location of Caria and the heavy Greek influence the region had been under for several centuries, I would stick with standard hoplite equipment. You could include more Asian aspects of dress as it was heavily exposed to eastern trade, but otherwise go with standard Greek equipment.

[Tim Haslam]

I’ve used these from Gripping Beast.
Very nice too.

‘Carian’ and Lykian appear somewhat interchangeable?

I’ve used the other figures as Phyrigian troops,
Victrix Persian body
Dacian head
Gallic cloak
Numidian shield and javelins.

[Pattus Magnus]

Thanks both for the responses!

David H, that is pretty well what I was thinking, too. Unless someone chimes in to tell me that Carians definitely had some features that would distinguish them from hoplites, I’ll carry on along those lines.

Tim Haslam, thanks for pointing out the Lycians, I don’t think I have seen those. I think you’re right, and they could fit right in. I would probably use the Lycians as ‘light’ or city militia, because the Carian mercenaries who went abroad (and probably were higher class full time warriors) were usually noted for heavy armour. I might use some plastic hoplites for the ‘professionals’ and try using some helmeted heads from Persian sets to bring in the eastern influence.

[SJWi]

Pattus, the only references and illustrations I can find are in the Osprey "The Persian Army" and the Montvert title of almost the same name. Both are quite old now so I don't know if they are still viewed as "accurate". Osprey shows a Lykian "sickle man" equipped like a hoplite with bronze greaves, bronze corselet and a plumed helmet, plus a an embossed bronze shield that looks smaller than a hoplon. He is armed with a bronze "sickle" or one-handed falx.  Unfortunately not much clue to the sources. The Montvert has plate showing a Lykian infantryman exactly as per the Gripping Beast figures in the photo, plus a  comment in the text that many Lydians would have looked like Greek hoplites but some may have worn "Persian" trousers.

Regards.   
 

[David H]

The main difference between Caria and Lykia is that the former was colonised by Greeks and the latter populated by Persians, and fought for them.

The western coast of Anatolia would have been heavily Hellenised due to all the trade contact with Greece, just look at the architecture, but you have to assume local culture would impact daily attire. I think you have it right by mixing in some Persian heads, and maybe a few trousered legs?

Your choice, and there is no one to prove you wrong 

[Easy E]

I think regular Mercenary Hoplite models will do the job.  They strike me as following the "normal" Greek Hoplite tradition. 

However, a few Persian helmets and trousers sounds like a capital idea!

[Tim Haslam]

Apologies, the second group of figures are meant to be Kappadokians.

Got mixed up with all these subject races!
 

[Wiegraf]

as suggested, I'd probably just use regular hoplites mixed with some lighter skirmish type troops. I always picture those in revolt having access to lots of stones to hurl at military forces. Seems to be the case from ancient times right into the modern day.

[Jjonas]

The key difference maybe head gear. Otherwise Karians/Carians are reputed to have originated some hoplite gear.
Duncan Head’s Montvert shows a hoplite style with an unusual helmet style which may be a rarity or speculative. Other speculations about Karian marines and troops would be the conical Persian helmet with Drepana sickle sword or a soft tiara.
Anyway it’s all on this page for your perusal:

[Pattus Magnus]

Thanks for all the follow up information and suggestions. The plates for the Lykians are probably a good place for me to start from. As far as the Persian influence in Caria goes, it was there, but later than the Greeks and probably not as extensive- both the Carians and Ionian Greeks became Persian subjects at around the same time. During the Ionian revolt the Carians seem to have fought on both sides at different points. Late in the war they fought two pitched battles against the Persians near the city of Mylasa (and lost), then the survivors fell back into the highlands on the Halicarnassus peninsula (part of the Carian heartland) and wiped out Persian force in an ambush. THEN, the Carians are rewarded by the Persian satrap with a land grant after the siege of Miletus, presumably for good service. Later, some of the Persian naval leaders at Artemesion and Salamis were Carians.

I think it’s actually fairly easy to reconcile that - the Carians were noted as mercenaries and showed up in a lot of foreign wars. They would have been vicious, but not necessarily well organized in defense of their homeland. Once an agreement was reached with the new ‘big power’ in the region, they signed up again to fight elsewhere. If a client had the money for the fee, Carians weren’t very bothered about ‘sides’, since they didn’t see themselves as Greek or Persian (even with places like Halicarnassus and Miletus, where they lived alongside Greeks for centuries they don’t seem to have been really assimilated, more like parallel communities exploiting different niches).

In any case, they may make an interesting force for conflicts in the late 6th-early 5th C period!

[Khusru2]

MiniFigs still do the Lykian Marine figure

[Pattus Magnus]

Khusru2, thank you for pointing out the Minifigs Lycians, I didn’t know about those. The website says those are 25mm - would I be correct in assuming they are quite a bit smaller than modern 28mm figures? Most of my Greek and Persian wars collection are 28mm sized 

[SJWi]

Pattus, unless I am mistaken these Minifigs date back to the 1970s/80s so are very definitely "small 25mm" plus are in a very different sculpting style to modern 28s.  I wouldn't even mix them in the same army. 

[Pattus Magnus]

Thanks for clarifying, that’s what I was worried about. I’ll need to stick with 28mm figures.