28mm Carolingian miniatures for last quarter 9th century

[duc de limbourg]

Just a simple question; I m looking for figures of Carolingian/Frankish armies of the period 875-900. Which can I use?
Imho the "normal'portrayed Carolingian with the "turtle" helmet are too early but I am not shure.

[Ethelred the Almost Ready]

Of some help???
https://deremilitari.org/2014/02/carolingian-arms-and-armor-in-the-ninth-century/

or this discussion on TMP???
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=478697

[SJWi]

Duc, the only book I have is the Osprey on "Carolingian Cavalry" 768-987AD. It questions the widespread use of the "turtle helmet" saying none have been found but they are illustrated in manuscripts. The later 9th century plates show figures quite akin to late Anglo-Saxons in armour and dress but with a more rounded helmet with and without nasal and mail aventail.     

[duc de limbourg]

Thanks you both for your answers. Will look into the links you provided.

[KGatch113]

Now if only someone would make them in plastic....

[cadbren]

Duc, the only book I have is the Osprey on "Carolingian Cavalry" 768-987AD. It questions the widespread use of the "turtle helmet" saying none have been found but they are illustrated in manuscripts. The later 9th century plates show figures quite akin to late Anglo-Saxons in armour and dress but with a more rounded helmet with and without nasal and mail aventail.   

Greek from the 3rd century bc:




Maybe the Carolingians were trying to copy some old Roman helmet, at least in artwork.

[guitarheroandy]

The classic Carolingian helmet is weird - as has been said, they've found no archaeological examples. Some people seem to think they are artist's impressions of Roman attic-style helmets, trying to make the Franks seem like 'the new Romans' as it were. I also can't work out why the Franks would be the only ones to wear such a helmet so I'm in the 'artistic convention' camp and would expect Franks to wear helmets like those worn by everyone else around them at the time.
Consequently, I'd probably use warriors with typical Norman/Saxon/Viking (etc) styled helmets for this period...

[duc de limbourg]

thanks for your opinion. Although i agree I suppose that the paintings there are must have an origin; can't imho not all phantasy

[bluewillow]

I used the gripping beast plastic dark age cavalry with the non nasal helmets and a few metal Carolingian for commands for the noble shock cavalry.  For the Infantry one unit in full armour in Carolingian helmets, the remainder of the units are plastic gripping beast dark ages to represent to levy.

My army predominantly fights my Goths, Bretons and Viking raiders, but I also want to build a Muslim army also.

Cheers
Matt

[Rochejaquelein]

Looking at manuscript miniatures, the "turtle helmet appears to be used at the very least into the late 10th century
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/search?year_start=850&year_end=1000&art=&tag=&gallery=&source=&place=&artist=#results

[wmyers]

Looking at manuscript miniatures, the "turtle helmet appears to be used at the very least into the late 10th century
https://manuscriptminiatures.com/search?year_start=850&year_end=1000&art=&tag=&gallery=&source=&place=&artist=#results

I have to say every one of those pictures appears to have been drawn by the same artist.

[carlos marighela]

Eureka have a couple of Carolingian figures in their Dark Ages range, mounted and unmounted fro m the latter period. There's a few others in there sufficiently generic to mix in. Standard pot type helmets with nasal bar.

[bluewillow]

I have to say every one of those pictures appears to have been drawn by the same artist.

Mostly from the same bible, and bible stories. No helmets of this type have been found yet by archeological digs. I am hopeful the new dig near Le Mans will turn up something as the Mayenne chateau only had a conical 4 piece helmet in the Carolingian burial. Although burial good are rare in this period of weapons etc.

Cheers
Matt

[Aethelflaeda was framed]

Kit being individually made and procured, and in no sense very uniform, i am inclined to believe that turtle helms might not have existed at all i light of the scarcity of historical artifacts, but i won’t rule out the possibility of individual examples.  Metal smiths at this time were very utilitarian in their steel usage for the field, but ceremonial/tournament sorts of helms probably existed and could have been the source of a model.

[Shahbahraz]

My own take is that the Carolingians saw themselves as the heirs of the Roman Empire, and there were definite archaising copying of elements of that. The helmets may be dodgy representations, or possibly reasonably accurate for helmets made to copy what were thought to be Roman models. Other elements such as pteruges certainly were copied.