5 Men In Normandy???

[MaleGriffin]

I like Dubar's idea and will try it out in my next WWII skirmish game.

[Freddy]

I was even thinking about simply using the distance to a target and roll percentage dice.  In order to "Score" the roll has to be equal to or greater than the distance.  So if you can see a target 45" away then you have to roll (I'm using 2 ten-sided dice) a 45 or higher in order to "Score".  If you're 9" away a 9 or higher.  I have a 48"x72" table so I could possibly have a target 72" away and would have to roll a 72 or higher to Score.

If you "Score", roll the KILL die to see if the target is temporarily Down or Out of Action.
If it's a "Miss", roll the SHOCK die to see if the target Flinches or Bails.

Might need some tweaking but sounds playable.

But how many Kill or Shock dice do you roll? With 1-2 it is even less likely to have effect than with the base rules.

[Dubar]

But how many Kill or Shock dice do you roll? With 1-2 it is even less likely to have effect than with the base rules.

Hehe...That's the "Might need some tweaking" part, haven't thought that far ahead yet 

[Freddy]

Hehe...That's the "Might need some tweaking" part, haven't thought that far ahead yet 

Distance is an important factor, if not the most important for hitting a target. But in my house rules the weapons have range bands (usually 3, close-regular-far), this way you can determine the target number by a short look in most cases, using the precise distance value itself bogs down the game with the constant need of measurements.

I am also not a great fan of the Shock mechanics of 5Core, yes, psychological effect is important but we are dealing here with live ammunition, a shot unable to kill is just weird. Bolt Action and similar games usually get the criticism of being unrealistically bloody, but close range firefights (what they simulate) usually are pretty bloody, just not every battle is fought from that close.

[Dubar]

Distance is an important factor, if not the most important for hitting a target. But in my house rules the weapons have range bands (usually 3, close-regular-far), this way you can determine the target number by a short look in most cases, using the precise distance value itself bogs down the game with the constant need of measurements.

I am also not a great fan of the Shock mechanics of 5Core, yes, psychological effect is important but we are dealing here with live ammunition, a shot unable to kill is just weird. Bolt Action and similar games usually get the criticism of being unrealistically bloody, but close range firefights (what they simulate) usually are pretty bloody, just not every battle is fought from that close.

Agree.  I have a collection of WW2 bolt-action rifles and laugh every time I look at the marking on the sights.  To me a target at 100yds is small, I can't imagine trying to hit anything at 1000yds.

I have Bolt Action and have re-written the rules to suit my style of play, now I've done the same thing with 5 Men In Normandy, the Shock mechanics have been dropped also.

I'm currently playing a game using my vastly modified 5MiN rules (no roll-playing fluff) and so far I managed to kill a German NCO 1st turn, and wounded 2 other Germans while taking hits on 2 of my G.I.s.  I have 8 Germans (1 medic) and 9 Americans (1 medic).  I'm finding I have to use a lot of markers to keep track of what each soldier is doing and also what the consequences of being shot are.  It's time consuming so I'm trying to whittle things down to a manageable level.  There's a bit of Bolt Action and 5MiN that you can detect in my home rules, but just barely.

I use range bands in my modified Bolt Action rules, but it bothers me that 1" of difference put you in another range band.  So far using percentage dice tied to actual distance (plus modifiers: running, shooting while wounded, soft cover, hard cover) seems to be working well.

[Freddy]

Agree.  I have a collection of WW2 bolt-action rifles and laugh every time I look at the marking on the sights.  To me a target at 100yds is small, I can't imagine trying to hit anything at 1000yds.

My experience comes from hunting, but yes, we usually do not shoot for above 200 meters even with a scoped rifle. It is not the technical capability of course, but the shot has to be "sure", also the animal has to be clearly identifiable.

I use range bands in my modified Bolt Action rules, but it bothers me that 1" of difference put you in another range band.

For larger teams half the guys within half out of the range border makes justice in the end. In my rules the target numbers are usually 9/10/13 for the three ranges, so no big diff at least for the short an the regular. (d10 based system where you hit by BS+d10 being over the target number)

One more thought about the "shock" dice: it indeed does make sense for squad based games, where one model/base represents more soldiers, 1-2 casualities not changing the effectiveness of the unit too much, but having a great psychological effect on the lucky survivors. For 1 on 1 systems it does not make sense in my opinion.

[Pattus Magnus]

For the sights on the old bolt action combat rifles, I wonder if their usefulness is more for achieving fire density when a section is firing as a unit. The section leader has his folks set the range on the sights for the distance where the enemy is, designates a target and has the section execute 10-rounds-rapid. With a ten man section, that’s similar fire density to an mg firing half a belt (or a Bren firing 3 magazines). At longer distances the sights help ensure the rounds are at least on the correct trajectory to be close to the enemy, but the main point is to achieve suppression. To put it another way, the marked sights on an old military rifle are primarily a tool to improve unit-level fire coordination rather than for individual marksmanship (although some shooters with excellent eyesight probably could use them for that as well).

[Dubar]

For the sights on the old bolt action combat rifles, I wonder if their usefulness is more for achieving fire density when a section is firing as a unit. The section leader has his folks set the range on the sights for the distance where the enemy is, designates a target and has the section execute 10-rounds-rapid. With a ten man section, that’s similar fire density to an mg firing half a belt (or a Bren firing 3 magazines). At longer distances the sights help ensure the rounds are at least on the correct trajectory to be close to the enemy, but the main point is to achieve suppression. To put it another way, the marked sights on an old military rifle are primarily a tool to improve unit-level fire coordination rather than for individual marksmanship (although some shooters with excellent eyesight probably could use them for that as well).

Could be, a volley of lead from multiple rifles at distance could have an effect.  Spray and pray!!!

I just concluded the game I mentioned earlier (it took me longer than necessary) and in the end I had 1 rifleman and the medic left on each side!!!  The G.I. did managed to "capture the bridge" only because the German did not move onto the bridge but remained stationary at the foot of the bridge.  The last turn had him stationary (aiming) at a target instead of moving.  One thing I learned was to use as much cover as often as possible, don't get caught out in the open.

During the course of action I was constantly making changes to my rules, when I saw that something wasn't working like I thought it should.  Plus solo play seems to double the amount of time it takes to activate both sides by myself.

[Freddy]

For the sights on the old bolt action combat rifles, I wonder if their usefulness is more for achieving fire density when a section is firing as a unit. The section leader has his folks set the range on the sights for the distance where the enemy is, designates a target and has the section execute 10-rounds-rapid. With a ten man section, that’s similar fire density to an mg firing half a belt (or a Bren firing 3 magazines). At longer distances the sights help ensure the rounds are at least on the correct trajectory to be close to the enemy, but the main point is to achieve suppression. To put it another way, the marked sights on an old military rifle are primarily a tool to improve unit-level fire coordination rather than for individual marksmanship (although some shooters with excellent eyesight probably could use them for that as well).

Yes, on unit level they usually shot to the advancing enemy line. But 1vs1 use was the norm, also non-military rifles had the same type of sights. I have the user manual of an old Mosin-Nagant, it has clear instructions against each target type, from planes to attacking cavalry.
+soldiers of pre-ww1 armies had much better shooting training than the 20th century standard, too bad these soldiers were massacred in the first days of ww1 by open assaults against machine guns.

During the course of action I was constantly making changes to my rules, when I saw that something wasn't working like I thought it should.  Plus solo play seems to double the amount of time it takes to activate both sides by myself.

Changing rules mid-game is normal, just do not forget taking notes
Btw I find solo gaming faster, the only slower part is the setup.

[Dubar]

"Changing rules mid-game is normal, just do not forget taking notes
Btw I find solo gaming faster, the only slower part is the setup."

Freddy...LOL, Years ago I invited 2 friends over to play a WW2 game with me as the "referee".  4 hours later there had not been a shot fired!!!  These "Generals" were too afraid to lose any of their assets.    My motto has always been, Do something, even if it's wrong.

Being the 5 Men In Normandy rules have morphed into homemade rules I have them on my computer.  I generally write down on the copy in front of me what I feel needs changing and make the change between turns (that's why a game is taking so long).  Right now my actual step-by-step rules are only 2 pages long, 1st page is movement and terrain and 2nd page is shooting with a small blurb on brawling.

The one area of my rules I'm contemplating changes to are what to do once a figure is hit.  As of now I have them bleeding out unless a medic can get to them, but it involves keeping track (writing down) their status each turn.  Depending on the roll of the dice they cannot move, or shoot, or both until tended to or they're KIA.  Poor medic is scurrying around the battlefield like a cat in a thunderstorm!!!  I may change them to simply roll to see if they are incapacitated (and removed from play) or still in the fight, just to speed things up.  I wonder how many actual soldiers stayed in the fight with a bullet in the leg, arm, or torso.  I expect very few, Hollywood has us believing otherwise.

I've also realized my gaming has turn more into just that, a game, instead of recreating a specific historical event.  I may at some point incorporate the campaign system from 5MiN, give my troops a bit of character, and see how long they last from one skirmish to the next.

[Harry Faversham]

For the sights on the old bolt action combat rifles, I wonder if their usefulness is more for achieving fire density when a section is firing as a unit.

Spot on, in my 'umble opinion. WW 1 British SMLE rifles were fitted with volley sights for just that reason. About a foot back from the foresight was a dial, marked out to a thousand yards, a post on the dial rotated to the range ordered. At the back of the bolt was a bead on a post that flipped up. Line up bead and post then lob volley fire, (just like .303 mortar bombs!) out to biff the Hun for six!

 

[Dubar]

Spot on, in my 'umble opinion. WW 1 British SMLE rifles were fitted with volley sights for just that reason. About a foot back from the foresight was a dial, marked out to a thousand yards, a post on the dial rotated to the range ordered. At the back of the bolt was a bead on a post that flipped up. Line up bead and post then lob volley fire, (just like .303 mortar bombs!) out to biff the Hun for six!

 

Dang, my MkIII doesn't have one:

[Freddy]

"Changing rules mid-game is normal, just do not forget taking notes
Btw I find solo gaming faster, the only slower part is the setup."

Freddy...LOL, Years ago I invited 2 friends over to play a WW2 game with me as the "referee".  4 hours later there had not been a shot fired!!!  These "Generals" were too afraid to lose any of their assets.    My motto has always been, Do something, even if it's wrong.

Being the 5 Men In Normandy rules have morphed into homemade rules I have them on my computer.  I generally write down on the copy in front of me what I feel needs changing and make the change between turns (that's why a game is taking so long).  Right now my actual step-by-step rules are only 2 pages long, 1st page is movement and terrain and 2nd page is shooting with a small blurb on brawling.

The one area of my rules I'm contemplating changes to are what to do once a figure is hit.  As of now I have them bleeding out unless a medic can get to them, but it involves keeping track (writing down) their status each turn.  Depending on the roll of the dice they cannot move, or shoot, or both until tended to or they're KIA.  Poor medic is scurrying around the battlefield like a cat in a thunderstorm!!!  I may change them to simply roll to see if they are incapacitated (and removed from play) or still in the fight, just to speed things up.  I wonder how many actual soldiers stayed in the fight with a bullet in the leg, arm, or torso.  I expect very few, Hollywood has us believing otherwise.

I've also realized my gaming has turn more into just that, a game, instead of recreating a specific historical event.  I may at some point incorporate the campaign system from 5MiN, give my troops a bit of character, and see how long they last from one skirmish to the next.

I have my own rules for basic combat, often I just squeeze it into whatever game I play, keeping the morale, activation, etc parts from the original. I have a hit roll and a wound roll like in 40k (armor just adds to the toughness), when hit, a soldier is shocked, when wounded, it is out-of-actin.

First aid is used mostly in campaign mode, it determines if the guys survive for the next battle, also gives one to wound reroll per turn in a given range. Resurrecting "dead" people might work in scifi or fantasy, but pretty weird in a world war setting imho.

[Dubar]

Question...Figures that are "Knocked Down", can they still be shot at?  So far I've found nothing in the 5MiN rules.

I'm leaning towards YES, reason is they may recover to fight again so don't give them the chance.

[Harry Faversham]

Dang, my MkIII doesn't have one:

Done away with by the time they got to the Smelly Mk. III. Here's a Mk. II.