Mordheim - pros, cons and length of play? (First ruins built!)

[Hobgoblin]

I've been digging into 'grimdark' skirmish games a little bit recently, which led me back to their fons et origo: Mordheim. I've never played it; it was 'after my time' first time around. But after a glance at the rules, it looks largely familiar - not too far removed from the skirmishy games that early Warhammer championed.

I was drawn to it for a couple of reasons. First, I want a skirmish 'companion game' to be played alongside Kings of War. There are four of us in our regular HOTT/KoW group, and we typically play two vs two. But once games get going again (after the Six Nations!), I thought it might be good to try more one-on-one games (smaller armies, more room to manoeuvre, etc.) using chess clocks, with the two unengaged players playing a skirmish game at the same time.

If we're keeping score in KoW in a sort of league, then I thought a narrative campaign would be the best way to go with the skirmish. We all love SoBH and Mutants and Death Ray Guns, but the one weakness of that system is that it's probably best for one-off games rather than sustained campaigns; with only two stats, there's not a huge amount of room for progression and injury, etc. I gather that Mordheim really shines as a sustained campaign, and I'd be willing to put up with a fair bit of Warhammery clunk for that. In fact, I think things that work badly in rank-and-flank games can work well in narrative skirmish. Warhammer's 'to hit/to wound/to save' malarkey bogs things down in massed battles, but I can see that it adds a bit of story to a skirmish ('He would have been run through by that vile rat-man were it not for his good Estalian steel cuirass', etc.).

The second thing I'm thinking of doing with Mordheim is running a one-off for some old friends in a couple of weeks. We all played Warhammer a lot in our misspent youths and so would all be familiar enough with the statline and basic rules to get going right away if presented with a warband.

Anyway, I have three questions about Mordheim.First, is it slow in the way that Warhammer was (is!)? Would a typical game of KoW be over well before Morheim got going? That might not matter if we're only playing one KoW game in an afternoon, but we sometimes have time for two normal-sized ones.

Second, would it be enjoyable as a one-shot, or would I be better off using a Mordheim-style set-up and then running Song of Blades/Fistful of Lead/Forbidden Psalm or whatever instead? Or is the game good value regardless of the campaign factor?

Third, are there any things to be avoided in setting up four warbands for a one-shot? I thought I might avoid wizards for simplicity's sake. I'll probably run Skaven, Undead, Cult of the Possessed, Orcs and maybe Mercenaries - and possibly provide two different lots of Orcs and/or Mercenaries to give some choice.

Many thanks in advance for any pointers!

[Citizen Sade]

Love a bit of Mordheim and have been playing it solidly since it was released in 1999.

I wouldn’t say it’s particularly slow as the warbands tend to be low model count. It depends on your players though. Cautious or cagey players can slow things down quite a bit. It was designed as a one-on-one game. The multiplayer rules came later in the Annual. Inevitably, such games take longer.

I think it works fine as a one-shot and often use it like this for narrative games. You might want to consider using the rules for one-off games allowing access to skills and equipment not available to starting warbands. I recommend not overdoing it though. The odd skill, statistic increase or extra bit of kit to add interest without burdening the players with too much to remember.

Things to avoid? (1) Shooty warbands e.g. marksman heavy Reiklanders can suck the joy out of the game. Consider limiting shooters to no more than a third of a warband. (2) Ultracompetitive warband builds e.g. Skaven swarm all armed with club, dagger & sling. Much more interesting to have mixed equipment.

FWIW, I’d include casters as spells and prayers are quite straightforwards and add to the game. I’d recommend playing strictly WYSIWYG. Finally, you might want to consider organising a collaborative game with your players fighting against a large umpire-controlled force.

[Hobgoblin]

Thanks very much! That's very handy!

I wouldn’t say it’s particularly slow as the warbands tend to be low model count. It depends on your players though. Cautious or cagey players can slow things down quite a bit. It was designed as a one-on-one game. The multiplayer rules came later in the Annual. Inevitably, such games take longer.

Thanks - and that's a good point about multi-player games. There's kind of a double-edged sword with IGOUGO games and the likes of SoBH/FFoL here: on the one hand, the more modern games keep everyone tightly involved; on the other, the full turn can be quite satisfying (KoW is a good example of this) and 'orderly' in a way that keeps things clear.

I think it works fine as a one-shot and often use it like this for narrative games. You might want to consider using the rules for one-off games allowing access to skills and equipment not available to starting warbands. I recommend not overdoing it though. The odd skill, statistic increase or extra bit of kit to add interest without burdening the players with too much to remember.

Good points! I was planning just to go with the basics, but I'll have a good look through the lists to see what might spice things up.

Things to avoid? (1) Shooty warbands e.g. marksman heavy Reiklanders can suck the joy out of the game. Consider limiting shooters to no more than a third of a warband. (2) Ultracompetitive warband builds e.g. Skaven swarm all armed with club, dagger & sling. Much more interesting to have mixed equipment.

Aha - now this is very handy! I'm probably at the opposite end as far as warbands go, in that I have a couple of Skaven with pistols but perhaps just one or two slingers if any (will have to check and paint them up if they exist!). I do have a couple of ratmen with crossbows and some more with muskets, but those don't appear to be eligible. I'd be able to field a lot of orcs with bows, but I'm probably going to be around a quarter to a third with the others.

FWIW, I’d include casters as spells and prayers are quite straightforwards and add to the game. I’d recommend playing strictly WYSIWYG. Finally, you might want to consider organising a collaborative game with your players fighting against a large umpire-controlled force.

Great - and given my relative dearth of shooters, perhaps spellcasters will be all the more necessary.

I'll definitely go WYSIWYG - impossible to keep track of things otherwise with four players, I reckon! I can see that even necessitating buying some of those awful dog-monkey Skaven to get claws and throwing stars and whatnot - but perhaps I can convert my way out of that one!

That's a good suggestion - thanks! Would having the game two vs two suck some of the chaotic fun out of it? I could easily set things up so that two players are Skaven and the other two humans or orcs, but I suspect 'every man for himself' is truer to the spirit of the game, temporary alliances and all.

[Citizen Sade]

I was planning just to go with the basics, but I'll have a good look through the lists to see what might spice things up.

See 'Fighting individual battles' on page 121 of the rulebook. Starting warbands can be a little dull and ineffective. I think there's a brief sweet spot where they have a few skills and advances and some decent equipment. It might be good to introduce this in an introductory game if you want to sell the system to your players.

Would having the game two vs two suck some of the chaotic fun out of it? I could easily set things up so that two players are Skaven and the other two humans or orcs, but I suspect 'every man for himself' is truer to the spirit of the game, temporary alliances and all.

Could be. Your game could have two allied warbands on each side, but only one warband as the overall winner at the end. That should encourage players to think about how much they cooperate and/or treachery.

As an aside, don't be shy of tinkering with the game. I do this all the time for one-off games or mini-campaigns. The last one, for example, had the players divided into two sides for three linked scenarios. Undead on one with three warbands, led by two necromancers and a vampire, versus a mixed bag of rabble (Dwarf miners, religious fanatics led by a warrior priest & villagers). Each had restricted warband choices and conflicting objectives. The undead, for instance, had the necromancers each wanting to be their own boss and an overbearing vampire questioning why he needed two uppity necromancers.

[blacksmith]

I think you can go with Mordheim without serious problems and it is a solid and very good system. I would also regard Thud and Blunder as it is very complete, a bit quicker and very tactical: https://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=13242

[Hobgoblin]

See 'Fighting individual battles' on page 121 of the rulebook. Starting warbands can be a little dull and ineffective. I think there's a brief sweet spot where they have a few skills and advances and some decent equipment. It might be good to introduce this in an introductory game if you want to sell the system to your players.

Right - that's good advice: thanks! The one-off is less of a "sell the system" and more of "fun must be guaranteed!" episode (to take place between hiking and rugby-viewing), so anything that ups the amusement is good. I'm planning to have all the warbands statted up for SoBH as a fallback, should it prove too fiddly and complicated - though I think the familiarity of the rules should help avoid that.

Could be. Your game could have two allied warbands on each side, but only one warband as the overall winner at the end. That should encourage players to think about how much they cooperate and/or treachery.

More good advice - thanks again!

As an aside, don't be shy of tinkering with the game. I do this all the time for one-off games or mini-campaigns. The last one, for example, had the players divided into two sides for three linked scenarios. Undead on one with three warbands, led by two necromancers and a vampire, versus a mixed bag of rabble (Dwarf miners, religious fanatics led by a warrior priest & villagers). Each had restricted warband choices and conflicting objectives. The undead, for instance, had the necromancers each wanting to be their own boss and an overbearing vampire questioning why he needed two uppity necromancers.

Great - lots of good food for thought here!

I now have the prospect of three potential Mordheim diversions, as another old friend and his son are keen on a campaign (and they have the original witch hunters and flagellants and whatnot!). So any time invested in Mordheim should be worthwhile (even if the one-shot ends up as Song of Blades or whatever).

I've also been paying a bit more attention to the lists; a look at the undead section made me realise that I have everything I need for a warband with lots of options barring a vampire (and I have a suitable figure I can paint up over the weekend). I even have suitable dire wolves, in the form of the barghests from the old Descent boardgame.

Does the orc warband play OK? I could field four warbands of different orcs straight away, but orcs aren't one of the original sides, and I wonder if they've been shoehorned in at all. It strikes me that, in time, I'd be able to field my old Aly Morrison hobgoblins in the orc role - orc and hobgoblin stats were virtually identical in old Warhammer (I think hobgoblins had poorer BS for some unexplained reason, but M, WS, ST, T, I, A, etc. were all the same). The Morrison hobgoblins are a bit less outlandish than the later GW orcs, so might feel less incongruous. In the meantime, I'm painting up some cheap plastic orcs in a suitably "grimdark" style.

I think you can go with Mordheim without serious problems and it is a solid and very good system. I would also regard Thud and Blunder as it is very complete, a bit quicker and very tactical: https://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=13242

Thanks! I'm increasingly leaning to just giving it a go for the one-shot for nostalgia's sake if nothing else.

I do have Thud and Blunder, and we played it a few times when it first came out. I must give it another look; I recall enjoying it, and I'm very fond of FUBAR by the same author. But I think it's the campaign structure and character progression that's the real attraction with Mordheim; if it doesn't work for the one-shot, I'd default to SoBH, which has never let us down and which I can run in my sleep!

[Citizen Sade]

Does the orc warband play OK?

I’ve not seen it fielded very often. Solid heroes, though only four starting ones, plus a bunch of boys for those that want to be contenders or funnies (Squigs & the Goblin fanatic) for those in it for giggles. The Troll’s decent (and immortal) though expensive to field from the get go. The animosity, unless managed properly, can be a kicker.

[DivisMal]

I did play a bit of Mordheim but long after it was released and in 15mm or in 28mm with both Vikings and Myceneans.

It is a lovely little game. A lot of what makes Warhammer slow becomes manageable when you only have like 5-10 models per side. It shines mostly however with the fluff and its incorporation into the rules. Squabbling orcs and gobbos, dumb ogres, grumpy dwarvws.

Shooty warbands (elves!) tend to be overpowered iirc, but otherwise it’s okay because it’s becoming imbalanced anyway as it’s going to be a campaign. So good luck with that.

It is slower than SoBH for which we ultimately gave it up again.

And in my experience with bothe the Viking and the Mycenean setting, it’s not really suited to one off games. Sure there are ruels, but if you make characters with these they are really overcosted. It needs some experience for this and it’s best done by a GM because it’s also really time consuming to build those warbands. Otherwise it’s nice because you can theoretically use all the special rules from any Warhammer from the specific period and add them without much trouble.

So for a one of, I’d suggest you go dor something different: larger SoBH can be fun. For the campaign Mordheim is definitely fun.

If you do this try to get all those nice add-ons, like the Empire in Flames. Atmosphere galore!

[Hobgoblin]

I’ve not seen it fielded very often. Solid heroes, though only four starting ones, plus a bunch of boys for those that want to be contenders or funnies (Squigs & the Goblin fanatic) for those in it for giggles. The Troll’s decent (and immortal) though expensive to field from the get go. The animosity, unless managed properly, can be a kicker.

Cheers! I'm sure I have two or three goblin fanatics kicking around that I have no other use for, so I might just dig them out!

[Hobgoblin]

I did play a bit of Mordheim but long after it was released and in 15mm or in 28mm with both Vikings and Myceneans.

It is a lovely little game. A lot of what makes Warhammer slow becomes manageable when you only have like 5-10 models per side. It shines mostly however with the fluff and its incorporation into the rules. Squabbling orcs and gobbos, dumb ogres, grumpy dwarvws.

Shooty warbands (elves!) tend to be overpowered iirc, but otherwise it’s okay because it’s becoming imbalanced anyway as it’s going to be a campaign. So good luck with that.

It is slower than SoBH for which we ultimately gave it up again.

And in my experience with bothe the Viking and the Mycenean setting, it’s not really suited to one off games. Sure there are ruels, but if you make characters with these they are really overcosted. It needs some experience for this and it’s best done by a GM because it’s also really time consuming to build those warbands. Otherwise it’s nice because you can theoretically use all the special rules from any Warhammer from the specific period and add them without much trouble.

So for a one of, I’d suggest you go dor something different: larger SoBH can be fun. For the campaign Mordheim is definitely fun.

If you do this try to get all those nice add-ons, like the Empire in Flames. Atmosphere galore!

Thanks! Yes, I'm definitely going to have Song of Blades in reserve for the one-shot - and wouldn't be averse to switching mid-game if circumstances called for it. The one-off might wind up being only a two- or three-player affair, depending on various family commitments, so I'm leaning towards giving Mordheim a spin if it's just a couple of us at that point and SoBH if we're all still there by that point.

I'll take your tip on Empire in Flames!

I've made a start on the terrain and have finished three corner-ruins with a couple of other bits well underway. If I can keep the pace up, I should have a fairly well-populated table by game day - and it's clear that Mordheim-style terrain is just perfect for any fantasy skirmish game. I've also found the multi-level ruins are a storage solution; I've put the finished buildings in the Cabinet of Shame and packed them with Skaven and ghouls, giving me a bit more space to work with!

[Hobgoblin]

The three completed ruins so far:

[Citizen Sade]

Good start! I assume that you're planning to fight in the ruins? Another option would be to use a rural Empire in Flames (EiF) setting. That would require fewer buildings and you could use any hills, woods, rivers etc. from your existing terrain collection. If that sounds appealing, Fogou Models have a bunch of lovely products that would be great e.g. ruined buildings, walls, barrows etc.

https://www.fogoumodels.co.uk/

[Hobgoblin]

Good start! I assume that you're planning to fight in the ruins?

Thanks! Yes, I reckon so. I found a great big plaster ruined temple that I picked up for a couple of quid a few years back, and I'm painting that to form the centrepiece (former temple to Sigmar, whatever), with ruined buildings forming streets around it. As I've got a few other nondescript bits of ruins and buildings already, I reckon I can probably put a suitably crowded table together - at least if the current rate of progress continues (the non-6N weekend ahead should allow me to make further advances!). Some friends are on the case, too, for the campaign side of things.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a SOBH-style warband builder for Mordheim (if anyone knows of one, let me know!). But I'm going to aim to get four warbands statted up well in advance. I've got everything I need for Skaven, orcs (x2 or more if need be), dwarf treasure hunters and undead already painted, and I can probably put together a slightly makeshift band of mercenaries (more 'dungeon adventurers', but they'll fit the profiles).

It strikes me that Mordheim is probably the best use I can make of my collection of Aly Morrison half-orcs. There isn't a list for them, of course, but their stats were pretty much identical to human stats in Warhammer - and, in fact, would be absolutely identical in the later editions of Warhammer that dropped Int, etc. Half-orcs, somehow, seem a better fit for Mordheim than orcs - perhaps because they featured in some of the WFRP stuff with similar atmosphere. The early Aly Morrison ones have loads of interesting gear combinations (crossbows, knives, two-handed swords, etc.). And they'd make good dregs, too, I think.

Another option would be to use a rural Empire in Flames (EiF) setting. That would require fewer buildings and you could use any hills, woods, rivers etc. from your existing terrain collection. If that sounds appealing, Fogou Models have a bunch of lovely products that would be great e.g. ruined buildings, walls, barrows etc.

https://www.fogoumodels.co.uk/

Thanks - I'll certainly give that all a look!

[DivisMal]

Yes, Mordheim is pretty good for micromanaging your models‘ inventory. Basically, in a campaign, even a knife hidden in a boot can be useful.
You can also have all kinds of monsters just imported from Warhammer. If you still have it 4th edition army lists (the thin booklet that came with the boxed set) or even 3rd edition entries can be used 1:1 in Mordheim (for 3rd edition simply ignore Coo, Int & WP).

[Elbows]

My take on Mordheim is simple; the coolest setting with very frustrating rules (or warbands).

If you're going to start Mordheim you need to do it with the right people.  Mordheim goes awry really easily.  One character with the right upgrade or skill and the right weapon can slay your opponents whole warband in some instances.  Certain warbands suffer immensely from balance...with fast/agile/shooty warbands basically running rampant over everything else.

Some warbands (elves mostly) have been banned in most campaigns with even the authors of the game and subsequent articles saying "yeah...don't use those".

My sad Mordheim story:

Around 2015-2016 a buddy of mine (with whom I used to play Mordheim in college) asked if I wanted to try Mordheim again.  Heck yeah.  I built an entire table of hand-made terrain (with towers, bridges, all kinds of crazy shit), I ordered a gaming mat, built and painted several warbands, compiled reference sheets, designed a new roster sheet - even bought sexy parchment paper to print them on.  I mean, I went 110% balls to the wall on this.

Get together...he whips out old unpainted minis and beats me senseless in like 10 games in a row.  While I had built a really cool and thematic undead warband lead by a vampire, and a cool dwarf warband...he simply chose the "start with 100 extra gold" warband, took a few shooty guys with good missile weapons and obliterated me.  My undead and dwarves, while cool...were slow and had no agility.  So he just ran circles around me, got a few "sniper" skills and that was the whole thing decided, more or less.

It's unfortunate, as a medieval/fantasy game it really just comes down to a shooting game most of the time.  Some warbands are simply far better than others.  He tried a witch hunter warband which can take wardogs which are 10x better than the undead zombie dogs...for less money, etc.

While Mordheim is one of the coolest settings in fantasy gaming...if you don't play competitively, you'll get trounced.  Rule of cool will get you slain most of the time.  My desire to have a "cool" warband basically meant I'd lost before we even began to play.

However, my loss is your gain - here are some resources I whipped up for the game:

https://myminiaturemischief.blogspot.com/2017/03/on-gaming-periphery-mordheim-hacks.html