Mordheim - pros, cons and length of play? (First ruins built!)

[DivisMal]

I never was wiped out like Elbows described,  :obut that’s definitely what I meant with, a GM would be best for constructing the warbands. Shooting is definitely overpowered since there’s no ammo and actually barely a disadvantage.

[Mark]

Hobgoblin, I am on the same path as you, getting stuff ready to play with a mate for a healthy dose of turn of the century nostalgia! Battlescribe has a mordheim warband builder, but it doesn't include all published warbands and I have found at least one error in it! However, it broadly works as long as you check with the rulebook.

As far as Elbows' experience goes, and with the caveat I last played when the game was released, it sounds like the table was not crowded enough. Missile weapons shouldn't be able to cover every avenue of approach to such an extent that they rule the field.

[Elbows]

The tables were very crowded. 

[Mark]

OK, so how did this happen?

"Took a few shooty guys with good missile weapons and obliterated me."

Very few scenarios have a time limit, did you not use the hiding rules? Undead certainly have elements that are very fast with dire wolves and vampires...

Not trying to have a dig, just not sure how you ended up in a situation where all your warriors ended up as pin cushions... and ensure we don't get the same experience when we start playing!

Apologies to hobgoblin for the minor hijack.

[Elbows]

Just depends on your warbands match up.

All it takes is one or two guys to unlock bonus BS and a "ignore cover" skill, etc...and if you're not a fast warband, you're not getting near objectives.  In typical Mordheim/Necromunda fashion - you win one or two games and you outpace your opponent more or less from then on.

You don't have to take my word for it.  You'll figure it out for yourself the first time you run into Skaven slinger spam or a High Elf warband, etc.  Now, could I have started arming all my guys with missile weapons too?  Sure, but then why play Mordheim?  I don't want my Vampire running around with a crossbow...that just seems stupid.

[Gibby]

One of the most important ingredients to a good tabletop game is having the right (or compatible) players. I am lucky to have like-minded friends to play games with, those who like to play to the theme, story and general spirit of the game at hand. Any ruleset can be broken by those who want to gamesmanship their way to victory (and if that's how they get their kicks, then why not?), and campaign games might be more susceptible to it. I haven't seen a Mordheim-like game fix the issue of runaway success gangs yet, so it falls a bit to the players to mitigate it a bit, I guess.

[Hobgoblin]

I'm very much enjoying the highjack, so don't worry about that!

Thanks, Elbows, for those links - they look very handy indeed!

I'm curious about the shooters issue. I've had a second pass over the rules, and one thing that isn't immediately apparent to me is why orcs and dwarves wouldn't have the same resilience to missiles that they had in our old games of Warhammer. Toughness 4 used to be a fairly good guarantee that you'd get the bulk of your troops into melee - especially when combined with armour.

I've seen a lot of Mordheim commentary saying that "armour isn't worth it," but I can't immediately see why. So what am I missing? A BS 3 bowshot at an orc has a 50% chance of hitting and then a one-in-three chance of causing a wound. So that's only a one-in-six chance of causing a wound per shot - and heavy armour + shield could take that down to one in twelve.

As far as our games go, I'll be creating all the warbands for the one-shot and letting the other players pick. For the campaigns, no one's a competitively minded player, and we'll probably have quite a few multi-player games as well as one-on-ones. I reckon that the ganging-up potential in the former should be enough to take care of any overpowered warbands tout de suite!

[Citizen Sade]

I've seen a lot of Mordheim commentary saying that "armour isn't worth it," but I can't immediately see why. So what am I missing?

Armour is comparatively expensive in Mordheim and critical hits negate it two thirds of the time. That’s why competitive build types don’t tend to favour it.

[Hobgoblin]

Armour is comparatively expensive in Mordheim and critical hits negate it two thirds of the time. That’s why competitive build types don’t tend to favour it.

Thanks! I've just been starting up a couple of WYSIWYG warbands with the orcs and Skaven I have to hand - and I saw the first point straight away: the gear for my available verminkin is worth much more than they are! I'd missed the second point, though.

I reckon WYSIWYG will act as a natural constraint on the warbands I can create for the one-shot. I'll probably stat up some starting warbands at 750 crowns and then back-ups at 500 crowns for those who get routed early.

I'm also inclined to ditch the restrictions on who can be armed with what; I've got plenty of goblins with two-handed weapons and orcs in heavy armour! From what I can see, costs are the same across the board (e.g a halberd or helmet is 10 crowns), and the expense of gear seems more likely to disadvantage the purchaser than the opponent.

Within reason, I should add: warplock pistols should be reserved to Skaven, and elf-bows to elves. But a goblin with a crossbow or a Ruglud's orc in heavy armour seems fair enough!

[mweaver]

I have played tons of Mordheim through the years, and we still go back to it sometimes.  The "official" warbands were fairly well balanced; but many of the later ones were not (elves are the obvious example).  Eventually a few of the expansion warbands were upgraded to official status (dwarves, for sure).

To a fair degree, shooty warbands can we weakened by having a table crowded with terrain - which fits the setting as well.

Somewhere around here I have a scenario my group cooked up for a convention years ago.  It would make a good four-player one-off, if you are interested.

Have you thought about collaborative play? We originally played Mordheim as intended (stalking each other through the ruins), but for years now our approach to the game has been collaborating warbands vs. a baddie force (more often than not, undead).

-Michael

[Elbows]

Yeah, armour is generally ignored because of its expense, and remember even a Strength 4 attack is -1 so it negates some armour, etc. etc.

[Citizen Sade]

I’d be interested in seeing that scenario, Michael.

I'm also inclined to ditch the restrictions on who can be armed with what ...

I approve. Mordheim rules with WYSIWYG Oldhammer figures is right up my street. A few people are doing it. We should start an Oldheim movement.

[mweaver]

The Lost Chest

The last survivor of an ill-fated Marienburger warband stumbled out of the ruins of stricken Mordheim this morning, and told how he and his mates had found a magically locked treasure chest – shortly before a Skaven band sprang an ambush. With his last breath, the Marienburger gasped out a description of the neighborhood where he and his doomed friends found, and then hastily re-hid, the chest before attempting to break out of the skaven trap. The Marienburgers lost the running fight with the evil rat abominations, but it is possible the chest remains undiscovered by the victors. For most who have heard the tale, the “Lost Chest” could be anywhere in the city, but a few captains have recognized landmarks in the dying man’s description, and have an idea where to start looking…

The “Lost Chest” scenario can be played by two players, but it is primarily intended for larger numbers of warbands. All of the warbands in the game have previously partially explored the section of Mordheim where the chest has been hidden, and have some knowledge of the area.

Set up. Blah blah blah. You will need several pairs of numbered counters to mark possible locations of the Lost Chest: three pairs for each player, plus one additional pair (for example, with four players you would need thirteen pairs of counters). Players roll to determine the order that they will place the first set of counters on the table. Place one set of the counters in a cup or similar container.  Set the others face down on the table and shuffle them.  Without looking at the numbers, the first player places a counter, and then the second player places a counter, etc., until all of the players have placed three counters and the first player has placed a fourth counter. These counters must be in a building, or some sort of enclosure. Counters must be at least 10 inches from the edge of the board, and they must be at least 10 inches apart from any other counters.  Before rolling to determine the order of placement for the warbands, each player draws three of the duplicate counters from the cup. These counters will tell each player three locations where the Lost Chest will not be found, since its actual location will be determined by the last counter left in the cup after all of the players have drawn their three counters (the warbands have all partially searched this neighborhood before).

Players follow the standard rules for setting up warbands and determining the order of play.

Searching a location. If one or more members of a warband ends the movement phase in a location with a counter and are within four inches of the counter, the player can roll to search the building at the end of the his or her turn. The base chance for the search to succeed is 1 in 6 per warrior searching the location (i.e. in the building/site and within four inches of the counter). If only one warrior is searching, then the search will succeed on a roll of 6+, while three warriors would successfully search a location on a 4+. If the search is unsuccessful, the location may be searched by the same warband again in a subsequent turn, with a +1 to the search roll (and a +2 on the third turn of searching, etc.).

Note that the number and the identity of a warband’s warriors searching a location may vary from turn to turn, as their captain sends them to different locations or has them defending against or attacking rival warbands. Such changes to not penalize the searchers: at the end of the turn, a player totals the number of his or her warriors searching a location, and adds any modifiers for previous searches of the same location conducted by the warband, and rolls to determine if the search is successful.

Obviously, a warband can search more than one location a turn, although no single warrior can search more than one location a turn.

A warrior in hand-to-hand combat, or within six inches of an enemy model, cannot search.

If the search roll is successful then the player who “discovered” the counter flips it over and calls out the number.  The player who secretly holds the other counter for that location must reveal the counter, demonstrating that the Lost Chest is not at that location. If no player has the counter for the site, then the searching player has found the Lost Chest. Players should check the last counter in the cup to insure that it corresponds to the counter at the site just searched. (If it doesn’t, then a player failed to reveal that he or she had the counter for the searched location; all of the inattentive player’s warriors are taken out of action, and the game ends. Assign experience points as normal – 1 for each survivor and 1 for each character who took an enemy out of action).

Removing the Lost Chest: Now that the Chest has been located, to end the game a warband must remove it from the board. The Chest is quite heavy, big and awkward, and securely locked. Players should use a model to depict the Lost Chest – the one that comes in the basic Mordheim box serves nicely. It can be carried as follows:

A single warrior with 4+ strength can carry the chest his/her full movement, but cannot run. Place the Chest behind the model, touching its base.

A warrior strength 3 or less can drag the chest at half the warrior’s normal movement rate, and cannot run. Place the Chest behind the model, touching its base.

Two warriors of strength 2+ can carry the Chest at the normal movement rate of the slowest of the two warriors. They cannot run. The two models should be placed base-to-Chest-to-base while they are carrying the Chest.

The Chest can be dragged behind a mount. The mount moves at its normal movement rate, but cannot run. Place the Chest behind the model, touching its base.

If a model dragging the Chest moves off of the board, then the Chest has been removed.

The game ends once the chest has been successfully removed from the table, or when all bands except one have routed.

Experience:
+1 for surviving
+1 per enemy taken out of action
+1 for the winning captain (the captain of the band that removes the chest from the board or the Captain of the last remaining warband if no band successfully carries the Chest off of the board before the game ends).
+1 for the searcher (or one of the searchers of the player’s choice) who found the Chest
+1 for the warrior or warriors (maximum of two) who actually carrird the Chest model off of the board. If the game ends because of routing before the Chest is carried off, no models receive this bonus experience.

Loot: All warbands take their normal search rolls after the game ends. Additionally, the player whose warband possesses the Chest at the end of the game may roll to see what the Chest contains:
Automatic 4d6 gold
4+ d6 gems worth 5 gold each
5+ Brace of dueling pistols
5+ Lucky Charm
5+ Rabbit’s Foot


One of the fun things we discovered running this scenario is the way a sneaky player can subtly convince his opponents that one of the locations that the Lost Chest is at a location the sneaky ones knows is wrong. 

-Michael

[DivisMal]

Armour is comparatively expensive in Mordheim and critical hits negate it two thirds of the time. That’s why competitive build types don’t tend to favour it.

That and as Elbows says further below, anything with S4 ignores light armor (including models armed with polearms, xbows, ogres etc.) and S5 ignores even heavy armor (i.e. anyone with a two-handed weapon).

Sure you could add a shield, but seriously *gamewise* a buckler + sword is the better combination (or the offensive choice: two handweapons).

[Citizen Sade]

The Lost Chest

Many thanks.