Mordheim - pros, cons and length of play? (First ruins built!)

[Hobgoblin]

But unarmoured goblins can certainly be found quite easily online if your own collection fails to yield anything.

Miniature Heroes sell a range called Mannequin Miniatures featuring goblins who are armed but not armoured (many of whom are even shirtless) and of course Foundry/Warmonger do a decent range of goblins all clad in the classic HeroQuest fashion of an open waistcoat and a pair of shorts!

Yes, definitely. But I'm trying quite hard to avoid buying anything extra for this project; the experience of organising (almost) all my miniatures over the winter has been quite a lesson in that regard!

One thing that projects like this are good for is stamping down on "morbid settism" - the inclination that I (and I'm sure many others) sometimes feel to keep miniatures of the same manufacturer and period together. I increasingly feel that that's a recipe for paralysis, so am happy to be led away from it by the need to pluck (say) unarmoured goblins from various of the labelled boxes that now make up the lead and plastic pile. I suspect I'll end up with a mix of Perry night goblins, modern plastic night goblins, ugly multipart 'goblin regiment' plastics and the newish Mantic goblins. For the orcs, I've already got a mix of various Citadel/GW, Heartbreaker and Warmonger nasties on the painting table. And for the half-orc "Middenheimers", I'm finding that kitbashed Oathmark/Frostgrave/GW/Perry plastics look good alongside the old Aly Morrison classics.

(I might subscribe to a bit of morbid settism with the Morrison half-orcs, but only because they have very distinctive insignia on their shields.)

Thud and Blunder. Came out a couple years back. My group organized a 4-6 player eight-game campaign around it and I thought it worked great for building warbands and advancing them over the course of the campaign.

I've just dug out the PDF for another look. We played a couple of games of it after it came out and enjoyed them, but I suspect we just scratched the surface.

One thing that's clear from looking at Mordheim tables is that any effort spent on building lots of ruins and walkways won't be wasted: that kind of terrain is pretty optimal for most good skirmish games (SoBH, Battlesworn, Pulp Alley, Rogue Planet, etc., etc.). In particular, narrow alleys and ledges are perfect for SoBH, given the Ambush and Push-Back rules.

[Major_Gilbear]

One thing that projects like this are good for is stamping down on "morbid settism" - the inclination that I (and I'm sure many others) sometimes feel to keep miniatures of the same manufacturer and period together.

Going to be honest here; I had no idea this was actually a serious "thing" that held anybody back in any way! 

I mean, there's a small amount of logic in using miniatures that were made for a game system for that game - one assumes that they fit the equipment/setting/etc, and it can even be used as a "limit" on a collection. But even then, people having been using whatever they like/was available in games since I can remember! If one person used Kev Adam orcs, another used Brian Nelson orcs, and a third used used some puddle-based orcs from the 80s, I really wouldn't even blink since this is exactly what people did back when Mordheim was current.

Any, really, if your orcs/goblins all have a mail shirt, and you don't have any mail shirts in your roster, you just do what everyone has ever done since time immemorial - you hand-wave it, and you simply tell your opponent what's what. If this is too confusing, you can simply paint the non-mail in brown to look like coarse or pebbled leather, and keep the metallics for the models who actually do wear mail. <shrug>

[tikitang]

One thing that projects like this are good for is stamping down on "morbid settism" - the inclination that I (and I'm sure many others) sometimes feel to keep miniatures of the same manufacturer and period together.

Not sure if this is a problem that needs stamping down? I am a full-blown "morbid settist" myself by that definition. For aesthetic reasons I find it most satisfying to keep miniatures of the same sculptor and period together. I'm not a fan of too much eclecticism, as I find it visually jarring!

[Hobgoblin]

Going to be honest here; I had no idea this was actually a serious "thing" that held anybody back in any way! 

It's certainly not a serious thing! 

I mean, there's a small amount of logic in using miniatures that were made for a game system for that game - one assumes that they fit the equipment/setting/etc, and it can even be used as a "limit" on a collection. But even then, people having been using whatever they like/was available in games since I can remember! If one person used Kev Adam orcs, another used Brian Nelson orcs, and a third used used some puddle-based orcs from the 80s, I really wouldn't even blink since this is exactly what people did back when Mordheim was current.

I don't hold with that logic at all - hence my lack of interest in Malifaux, despite all the good things I hear about it (I mean, I know I could proxy things, but it seems a bit of a chore ...). I very much take a "use what you've got" approach to all games, and the idea of having to use "official" figures is anathema to me.

No, the "morbid settist" urge is something that I think quite a lot of people feel: the lingering notion that all the miniatures of a particular sort really ought to be based and painted in the same way. I certainly feel that urge, though I often take action to crush it!

An example: I have a few Marauder goblins lurking in the lead pile. I do have a creeping inclination to keep them all together, paint and base-wise, but I'm going to stomp all over that by plucking out unarmoured ones for the Mordheim project, where they'll mingle with Citadel and whatever else fits, gear-wise, and be based on muddy, 'grimdark' rounds. The armoured ones will probably end up on lighter-coloured square MDF bases for KoW, etc. Or they might end up with the grimdark basing for other skirmish games - but that will come later.

On the orc examples: I'm using Perry, Adams, Morrison/Carden and Nelson in the same warband - uniting them with the paint scheme and basing (and in some cases, mixing elements from different plastic kits). I love seeing miniatures by different manufacturers and designers mixed together - as in Bryan Ansell's famous chaos army or Spooktalker's wonderful orc warband.

Any, really, if your orcs/goblins all have a mail shirt, and you don't have any mail shirts in your roster, you just do what everyone has ever done since time immemorial - you hand-wave it, and you simply tell your opponent what's what. If this is too confusing, you can simply paint the non-mail in brown to look like coarse or pebbled leather, and keep the metallics for the models who actually do wear mail. <shrug>

No, I'll be able to find plenty without armour (though it might take a bit of a search!), so I'll stick with WYSIWYG - within reason: if one or two members of a five-strong henchman group have helmets, I'm happy to hand wave that or the equivalent.

Essentially, I see WYSIWYG as a prompt for creativity - whether that's using up miniatures that were languishing in search of a project (or because of morbid-settist impulses!) or kitbashing to get to the desired result (my orc leader is underway with a mix of GW goblin, orc and 90s black-orc bits in use so far, and I've got an orc pit fighter in progress too).

With Mordheim specifically, the other point is that WYSIWYG drives interesting and non-optimised roster choices. An example: I'm going to use the half-orc thief (bottom row, second from right) in my mercenary warband:



Now, he's promising Mordheim material: no armour or shield, a sword and dagger and a bow on his back. But wait! He's also carrying a huge two-handed sword (you see it between his legs in the drawing). So, if we're going strict WYSIWYG, he can't be a marksman. Sure, the two-hander is eminently handwaveable, but what if we run with it? He can't be a marksman, but he can be a youngblood with a rather extensive loadout: sword, two-handed sword and bow. And, actually, it gives him some interesting combat options. Fighting Skaven (or charged by anyone)? Draw the two-hander as you won't have the initiative anyway. In other circumstances, or if survival is at a premium? Go with the sword (for the parry!) or sword and dagger (it's a moot point, but I'd presume that all the Mordheim characters with two melee weapons still keep their free dagger, especially as the rules stress that daggers need not be visible and characters have one to start with, in which light "can be armed ..." would suggest additional gear).

I reckon that approach is ultimately more interesting - and that half-orc does look a little less grizzled than the rest of the group ...

[Hobgoblin]

Not sure if this is a problem that needs stamping down? I am a full-blown "morbid settist" myself by that definition. For aesthetic reasons I find it most satisfying to keep miniatures of the same sculptor and period together. I'm not a fan of too much eclecticism, as I find it visually jarring!

Yes, it's definitely a real (if not serious) thing!

Each to their own, but I always find warbands/armies made from the works of different designers more interesting - and thus a good reason to combat my own morbid-settist tendencies. I mentioned Bryan Ansell's chaos army above - to me, it's an old-school marvel!

And just look at Spooktalker's amazing orc warband! I think there are five designers involved and there are quite significant evolutions in the style of at least two of them.

The other point is that, barring conversions, single-designer/period warbands can often look quite samey, regardless of painting: a lot of Warcry and Underworlds warbands end up like this - which makes the Garden of Hecate-style conversions so refreshing.

[Major_Gilbear]

I'm sorry, but I regret posting anything at all now; I've completely lost the thread regarding what point you're even trying to make. So, I'll leave you to it; with best and kindly wishes for your project, and I hope you have fun!

[Hobgoblin]

I'm sorry, but I regret posting anything at all now; I've completely lost the thread regarding what point you're even trying to make. So, I'll leave you to it; with best and kindly wishes for your project, and I hope you have fun!

Thanks, but I don't see that you've anything to regret, and you've made some great and informative posts in an interesting thread. So I hope you won't bow out!

Put more simply, my point is just that WYSIWYG/RAW is a great spur for creativity. A hunt for (say) unarmoured goblins may well throw up more interesting choices (figure selection and kitbashing) than just sweeping together all the Citadel ones and ignoring armour where they have it. Necessity is the mother of invention - or the advantages of a limited palette!

And by the same token, WYSIWYG can enforce more unusual (and interesting) roster choices, as in the half-orc example.

[tikitang]

I do agree that Major Gilbear's points have certainly generated interesting discussion and food for thought, and are therefore valuable to this thread!

my point is just that WYSIWYG/RAW is a great spur for creativity.

And by the same token, WYSIWYG can enforce more unusual (and interesting) roster choices, as in the half-orc example.

I also agree with all of the above, 100%, and it is precisely that philosophy that drives my own decision-making in warband construction, albeit I tend to purchase miniatures for projects rather than scouring through a vast collection of stuff I already have (mostly because I don't have a collection outside of my specific project!)

BUT, I'd also argue that sometimes MORBID SETTISM™ can produce creativity in its own way.

To be clear, I'm not talking about purchasing official miniatures for a specific ruleset, like Malifaux. I really don't like that sort of thing at all, no matter how good the rules may be. I definitely prefer systems which encourage you to choose the miniatures you want. But even with that freedom, I do like a consistency of design and style (though the modern GW miniatures are most definitely not to my taste), so once I find a sculptor whose work I like, I tend to try and stay within their range as much as possible. But that very limitation can generate creativity in the same fashion as the WYSIWYG "enforcement" you speak of. Self-imposed restrictions can often produce more interesting results than total freedom.

For example, you may recall me mentioning that before I decided to go down the road of Forbidden Psalm, I was strongly considering Mordheim as my next project. I went as far as purchasing a warband of zombies, an undead wolf, a necromancer and a (fully armoured) vampire to be my Undead warband, and for aesthetic/scale reasons, and in true Morbid Settist fashion, I purchased these from the same sculptor as the warband of cultists I already owned (which I planned to use for a Cult of the Possessed warband).

But when faced with the various frustrations of Mordheim (such as the suggested table size [too large], equipment limitations [why?!] and the amount of terrain required [yikes!]) I was turned off and decided to focus on FP instead. After switching rules, I wasn't really sure what to do with the Undead warband I had just purchased. Sure, In the Footsteps of the Mad Wizard allows you to field specifically undead warbands, but in truth I didn't really want to field an undead warband in FP!

As such, this weekend I came up with the idea of 'resurrecting' the zombies and turning them back into living, breathing human beings, with the aid of green stuff! So, I've been busy over the last couple of days patching up exposed skulls, exposed ribs, ruptured bellies and torn flesh to look alive again. That's been a very interesting and creative experience and has given me immense satisfaction to do. And yet, it wouldn't have happened if I'd allowed myself the freedom of choosing miniatures from a different sculptor/manufacturer to be an opposing warband (which I wouldn't have wanted anyway, as they just wouldn't have looked right). 

[Hobgoblin]

BUT, I'd also argue that sometimes MORBID SETTISM™ can produce creativity in its own way.

To be clear, I'm not talking about purchasing official miniatures for a specific ruleset, like Malifaux. I really don't like that sort of thing at all, no matter how good the rules may be. I definitely prefer systems which encourage you to choose the miniatures you want. But even with that freedom, I do like a consistency of design and style (though the modern GW miniatures are most definitely not to my taste), so once I find a sculptor whose work I like, I tend to try and stay within their range as much as possible. But that very limitation can generate creativity in the same fashion as the WYSIWYG "enforcement" you speak of. Self-imposed restrictions can often produce more interesting results than total freedom.

Yes, I suppose that's really the nub of it: restricted choices often lead to interesting outcomes.

As such, this weekend I came up with the idea of 'resurrecting' the zombies and turning them back into living, breathing human beings, with the aid of green stuff! So, I've been busy over the last couple of days patching up exposed skulls, exposed ribs, ruptured bellies and torn flesh to look alive again. That's been a very interesting and creative experience and has given me immense satisfaction to do. And yet, it wouldn't have happened if I'd allowed myself the freedom of choosing miniatures from a different sculptor/manufacturer to be an opposing warband (which I wouldn't have wanted anyway, as they just wouldn't have looked right).

Ha! That's a brilliant - if bonkers - idea: bravo! And, actually, it's not that far from the ghouls-into-dregs process that I've seen some people go through for Mordheim. I can see how you might get a suitably doomed-looking bunch for Forbidden Psalm in that way.

[Citizen Sade]

Put more simply, my point is just that WYSIWYG/RAW is a great spur for creativity. A hunt for (say) unarmoured goblins may well throw up more interesting choices (figure selection and kitbashing) than just sweeping together all the Citadel ones and ignoring armour where they have it. Necessity is the mother of invention - or the advantages of a limited palette!

We’ve used Mordheim rules a lot with Oldhammer figures and with some ranges it certainly can be a challenge to find figures that aren’t well armoured and armed by Mordheim standards. We solved this ‘problem’ in various ways. For a Realms of Chaos warbands campaign weekend, we increased the GC available for warband creation. We’ve also halved the price of light and heavy armour on occasion.

With regards to equipment restrictions, we often simply ignore them and take the approach that you pay for the equipment on the figure. Ogre bodyguard hired sword with a halberd? Fine. Warrior Priest with a flail? Cool.

[tikitang]

I can see how you might get a suitably doomed-looking bunch for Forbidden Psalm in that way.

That's exactly what it's going to look like when it's finished: a bunch of miserable wretches eking out the last drops of existence before the Seventh Misery occurs, with battered shields, scrappy weapons, missing shoes, ripped trousers and worn-out faces.

The only thing I have absolutely no idea how to do is paint rust, which I think will be a requirement for the authentic look!

[Hobgoblin]

We’ve used Mordheim rules a lot with Oldhammer figures and with some ranges it certainly can be a challenge to find figures that aren’t well armoured and armed by Mordheim standards. We solved this ‘problem’ in various ways. For a Realms of Chaos warbands campaign weekend, we increased the GC available for warband creation. We’ve also halved the price of light and heavy armour on occasion.

Those sound very good ideas - and the RoC campaign sounds terrific!

A lunchtime rummage yielded a few suitably unarmoured goblins - and no fewer than three goblin fanatics! As those are likely to prove short-lived, I'm pleased to have a few on hand.

With regards to equipment restrictions, we often simply ignore them and take the approach that you pay for the equipment on the figure. Ogre bodyguard hired sword with a halberd? Fine. Warrior Priest with a flail? Cool.

Yup, the equipment-list restrictions are the one part of the RAW that I'm inclined to ditch from the outset - or at least allow WYSIWYG to overrule it. There are a fair few nice Kev Adams orcs with black-powder weapons out there for one thing! And allowing orcs to have clubs doesn't seem outrageous (though was that an oversight that was fixed later?). 

One thing I haven't seen rules for in the various Skaven lists is the good old warpfire thrower. Might have to house-rule something for that!

[Hobgoblin]

That's exactly what it's going to look like when it's finished: a bunch of miserable wretches eeking out the last drops of existence before the Seventh Misery occurs, with battered shields, scrappy weapons, missing shoes, ripped trousers and worn-out faces.

The only thing I have absolutely no idea how to do is paint rust, which I think will be a requirement for the authentic look!

The Citadel rust paint is pretty good. You can either paint the metal dark brown to start and slather on the rust or paint it in a normal iron/steel fashion and then add lots of it. And then pick out scratches and edges in silver.

[Citizen Sade]

... allowing orcs to have clubs doesn't seem outrageous (though was that an oversight that was fixed later?).

Yes, the club was added to the Orc equipment list in one of the Mordheim Rules Reviews.

[Major_Gilbear]

One thing I haven't seen rules for in the various Skaven lists is the good old warpfire thrower. Might have to house-rule something for that!

Okay, okay, I'll help!

Skaven Clan Skryre Rat Ogre has a Warpfire thrower in Town Cryer magazine #25:

Range 6", S4, Sv-1
Special rules: Jet of Flame. Draw a line 6" long x 2" wide. All models in its path are hit on a 4+, with no modifier. Additionally, the thrower causes fire damage as per the Brazier Iron on page 85 of the 2002 Mordheim Annual)

Should be easy enough to treat the weapon team as one model, with those rules. You could also roll a D6 each time it fires and on a 1, the team counts as having shot themselves instead as the weapon explodes. Whether the weapon is then lost, or repaired in time for the next game, I'll let you decide.

It should be noted that Mordheim Skaven are Clan Eshin though, not Skryre.