Italian wars help

[Lancer]

Just getting into my 1st Italian wars period army, now I have 4 perry mercenaries pike-blocks already made from my War of the Roses armies, just  flag swaps needed, my question is when can I mix in other units with cut and slash costumes, ie what year would they start appearing together on the battle field, not in the same units, really like the idea of painting up loads of landsknecht.

[Von Trinkenessen]

Use the WOR pike blocks as Italian allies perhaps.

[Lancer]

Thankyou for that, but I am looking more for specifics, ie I want to game the 2nd Italian war using my army as French, ie with his 8000 Swiss mercenaries, at what point did their uniform/costume change. Tried google but to no help.

[bigredbat]

...alas I don't think the "men in tights" look that was still good at Fornovo in 1494 lasted far into the early c.16th. I wouldn't use them very much past 1500.  I'd be interested to hear others views on the matter, though.  And for many gamers "a pikeman is a pikeman", they can happily overlook a change in mere fashion.

[Thaddeu]

I'm no expert, but per Helion's Italian Wars vol 2, the Swiss and Italian infantry were not yet very puffy-sleeved even up to 1515, although the landsknechts were starting to be. The main difference I see between the non-landsknecht infantry and the Perry plastics is the presence of codpieces in the former. I recommend the Helion book if you pursue this project, it also has good army descriptions for Agnadello, Ravenna and Marignano.

[MartinD]

I'm doing a Venetian Army in the near future and from what I've read so far (and what I'm planning) is to replace the Perry WOTR bodies/metal Swiss etc with slashed-clothes landsknechts for anything after about 1515. I'm planning to begin the army for about 1490-94 initially (because Swiss Allies!) and then eventually add to it.

[Lancer]

That has been a lot of help, thankyou for that

[Albert of Winterpig]

I am doing the same era, what I have decided is the Perry mercenaries box, but with the metal swiss heads they sell seperately for my Swiss, the european heads for generic troops (italians mostly) mixed heads for my French and Gascons and Warlord for my Landsnekts.

With TAG for my Italian specifics and Spanish.

My intention is to be able to mix and match around with the generics to balance sides.

Cavalry is up in the air at the moment, although the perry light cavalry box will cover many of them and they do some lovely metal stradiots.

Eureka do great French Gendarmes, others are again likely TAG.

Not ruling out Artizan, Steel Fist (would like to see in the flesh), Foundry, Essex etc...

[Goliad]

The 'Camisado' blog (I am not affiliated) is dedicated to 16th century wargaming and has some great blogs that I have found useful on things Renaissance including early 16th century soldiery like this:
https://camisado1500s.blogspot.com/2018/05/early-16th-century-infantry.html

The Army Royal Blogspot is inspirational and a great source for how to convert those Perry boxes into early Renaissance.
https://stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com/

Woodcuts and paintings that can be be reasonably be attributed to the early 16th century seem to show a slimmer sillhouette but there are style differences with the late medieval. A good confirmed contemporary woodcut to study is a Venetian woodcut of the Battle of Marignano. It is done in a blocky, no perspective late medieval style which makes it easier to study the individual  fashion and armour. You see jacks/brigandine and lots of base coats (which were popular in the early 1500s especially in France and England). Some of the representations look straight out of a Perry Box, some look classically "high renaissance". 

https://www.e-rara.ch/zuz/content/zoom/11153500

Soldiers' clothing is going to wear out pretty quick so likely they will have plenty of opportunity to copy or incorporate current fashion in their replacement wear. The armour from 1490s is still going to be in good nick so there is no urgency to replace it if you are a poor infantryman. A good hand me down breastplate, might still be better than the latest munition armour.

Between 1494 - 1515 I think there is lots of scope to put out the figures you want and be able to justify it. (Those guys? They have come from the French countryside and been equipped with their region's Francs Archers kit that has been stored since the 1480s ...)

Renaissance gamers should have a laissez faire attitude to these things!

[PAULSPENCE]

Thanks a lot for this. Really appreciated!

[commissarmoody]

Lots of great information here. Thanks for sharing.

[Stuart]

Hi there

Bit late to respond but this book shows you the development from late 15c through to the mid 16c

https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/first-book-of-fashion-9781474249904/

 you could use these plastics at a piinch up to about 1500 but from then the difference in fashion is stark

With a bit of conversion you can extend this but the proper landsknecht / Swiss figures out there are worthwhile to get to represent the period you’re interested in.

All the best

Stuart