Arm of Service plates (Numbers/Colours) Burma 1945

[JohnFoA]

Hi all

Anyone got a list of AoS numbers for a British Indian Army Infantry Division in Burma 1945.  They have several units which BIA in Italy didn't have, such as a Divisional 'HQ' Infantry Bn, Recce Bn (other the Recce Regt) and RIASC Supply Issue Sections. 

I'm planning on doing some vehicles for BIA deployment (20th Division) to Indochina in 1945 and would like to get AoS plate 'right'.

Or for the 555th Line of Communication Sub-Area command, or RAF Regt Sqdn identifiers (1307 Wing with 2963 & 2967 Sqdns).

Anything RN identifiers?

Hope you can help

TIA

John

[Jemima Fawr]

By 1944-45 they used exactly the same system as used in NW Europe.  This is confirmed by formation newspapers of the time which, instead of referring to 'News from the 1st Loamshires' instead talked about 'News from Group 61' (i.e. the AoS serial number).  However, what the 'Burma Oddities' such as HQ Defence Bns, 'Foot' Recce Bns, AA/AT Regts, etc used is anyone's guess and despite searching, I never managed to find one that talked about those units.

RAF Regt vehicles didn't use any form of AoS sign or official unit marking beyond RAF roundels and Allied Stars.  In NW Europe they were occasionally seen with chalked (or hastily-painted) markings such as 'TAF/84' meaning 'Tactical Air Force/84 Wing'.

Sadly no clue for the rest, sorry.

[Jemima Fawr]

If you absolutely HAVE to make it up... For the Defence Bns and Recce Bns I would suggest using black as the AoS sign colour, as that tended to be used by units assigned to Div HQ such as MG Bns, Military Police, Field Post Offices, etc.  '64' was the MG Bn, so perhaps go with '65' and '66' for the Defence and Recce Bns?  For the AA/AT Regts I just kept things simple and gave the AT Batteries '46' and the AA Batteries '47', which was what they would have used if they were in separate regiments.  When combined into single regiments I'd hazard a guess that they used '46', but that's just a guess.

As for the order of seniority among the various Field and Mountain Artillery Regiments within the same division: British regiments would be senior to Indian, so would take the lower numbers, so you'd have the British Field Regts first, then any Indian Field Regts.  The Indian Mountain Regts would probably follow on sequentially after the Indian Field Regts.

[JohnFoA]

Thanks Jemima

I was hoping to draw you out ...

So I have similar views on following Europe, however the Mediterranean theatre has it's own tables which vary and this make me wary.

I have (via another forum) a clip of 20th Div on parade in Saigon.  And two arm of service plates are readable
An artillery unit with 43 on horizontal split, now this is definitely 114 Fd Regt RA - as it is the only unit with all British personnel
Armoured formation 44 on horizontal split, this is 16th Cavalry, who had same AoS when in Burma.  Incidentally the parade shows Stuart M3A1 with A Sqdn and Humber Mk.IV with B & C Sqdn markings (since there's only a couple of each A/C I speculate these are Sqdn HQ Troop vehicles)

I did consider Red with 40 for Divisional HQ Infantry Bn and use Green/Blue with 41 for Infantry Recce Bn. But the real stumper are numbers for the RIASC Supply Issue Sections, which I've guessed at.  However I don't have the IEME Div Recovery Coy number either and can't see one in Warpaint vol3 (NWE and some Med numbers).  Although with AoS within a Division going up to 100 I could just allocate something.  After all I'm not doing all the vehicles 


Thanks for your thoughts, really appreciated. 

[Jemima Fawr]

You know me so well... 

I would avoid a red square, as that always tends to get used by a division's 1st brigade (or some independent brigades).  The green/blue horizontal split square was used by unbrigaded RAC units, hence its use by divisional/corps armoured/mechanised recce regiments.  e.g. '41' for an infantry division's recce regiment, '45' for an armoured division's recce regiment and '44' for a corps recce regiment (the corps recce should had a white bar across the top of the square, signifying corps troops, but doesn't seem to have been used by 16 LC).

The divisional MG Bn would belong to the infantry branch and they used black, so I'd still go with black for the divisional defence and recce bns.

'43' would be the division's second Field Artillery Regiment in the standard 1944 scheme of markings.  That fits with 20th Division's orbat, as at that time they had 9 Fd Regt, 114 Fd Regt, 23 Indian Mtn Regt & 111 AT Regt (which had converted from the former 55 AT/LAA Regt on 1 Sep 44 - there's no mention of an LAA Regt being present after that point).  So 114 Fd Regt has '43' as the second field regiment.  9 Fd Regt would presumably have used '42' and 23 Mtn Regt would have '44', with 111 AT Regt taking '46'.

The IASC organisation in the Far East was totally different to the NW European organisation, but they'd still use red/green diagonally-split flash as the RASC.  For the four Supply Issue Sections (37th, 38th, 39th & 45th in 20th Division), I'd just take the easy option and use the four serials used in NW Europe for an infantry division's four transport companies: 72, 70, 71 & 73 or 70, 71, 73 & 72, depending which version you read.

IEME would use the same red-over-yellow-over-blue flash as the REME.  The two Mobile Workshop Companies (63rd & 64th) would presumably be allocated the serials 88 & 89 (allocated to 80th & 100th Brigades respectively).  If there was a third brigade there would be another Workshop Company with the serial 90.  The 20th Divisional Recovery Company would be responsible for the division's Light Aid Detachments (LADs), which in NW Europe would have the serial 48.

Does that help at all?  It's all educated guesswork...

[JohnFoA]

Big post and thanks for you time.  I've had a reply on another forum where the poster is quoting a document authorised by CGS India for Infantry Division 1945 AoS plates.

Div HQ Bn 53/Green
Div Reece 41 Green/Blue (horizontal)

Composite Pls, which were replaced by Supply Issue Sections (but this is, I have read, a source of madness to those who study Organisations)  with numbers allocated of 111, 139, 141, 142/Red & Green (diagonal)
Indian Div have three ()  Transport Companies although numbers for only two (71, 72) are on list but... 73 is a 'spare' Signals and Transport number.  So I'd go with that.

AA/Atk Regt - 46/Red & Blue (horizontal)

Recovery Coy - 95/Blue, Yellow, Red (horizontal)

Erm 16th Light Cavalry - until they were attached to 20th Indian Div they were XIV Army troops not Corps assets IIRC +/-.  Although they probably ping-ponged about.

Got to look out for Ordnance units now....   

ever the darkness descends

[Jemima Fawr]

Big post and thanks for you time.  I've had a reply on another forum where the poster is quoting a document authorised by CGS India for Infantry Division 1945 AoS plates.

Div HQ Bn 53/Green
Div Reece 41 Green/Blue (horizontal)

Composite Pls, which were replaced by Supply Issue Sections (but this is, I have read, a source of madness to those who study Organisations)  with numbers allocated of 111, 139, 141, 142/Red & Green (diagonal)
Indian Div have three ()  Transport Companies although numbers for only two (71, 72) are on list but... 73 is a 'spare' Signals and Transport number.  So I'd go with that.

AA/Atk Regt - 46/Red & Blue (horizontal)

Recovery Coy - 95/Blue, Yellow, Red (horizontal)

Erm 16th Light Cavalry - until they were attached to 20th Indian Div they were XIV Army troops not Corps assets IIRC +/-.  Although they probably ping-ponged about.

Got to look out for Ordnance units now....   

ever the darkness descends

Nice find!

I'm slightly doubtful of the 41 serial being used by recce bns though, as the blue/green colour was very much the preserve of the RAC/IAC.

Yeah, the 16th LC was passed from pillar to post between XIVth Army, IV Corps and XXXIII Corps, finally ending up as div recce for 20th Div!  On the very few clear photos of the regiment's vehicles, they had the circular version of the XIVth Army badge and the '44' serial of a corps recce regiment, though without the white 'corps troops' over-bar or the 'army troops' under-bar!  It's very much a bugger's muddle!

[JohnFoA]

Right Ho

So this is the post from WW2talk added by Gary Kennedy, who runs the site www.bayonetstrength.uk.  He received the information from another member there, morrisc8, who says these are the standard unit signs of an Infantry Division, circa 1945, as authorised by CGS India.



HQ Inf Div and Fd Security Sec - 40/Black
Div HQ Bn - 53/Green

HQ Inf Bde - 81/Red
Inf Bns - 55, 56, 57/Red
HQ Inf Bde - 87/Green
Inf Bns - 60, 61, 62 /Green
HQ Inf Bde - 94/Brown
Inf Bns - 67, 68, 69/Brown

(Inf - Spare numbers - 54, 58, 59)

Recce Regt - 41/Green & Blue (horizontal)

HQ Inf Div RA - 40/Red & Blue (horizontal)
Regts (field, jungle or mountain) - 42, 43, 44/Red & Blue (horizontal)
AA/Atk Regt - 46/Red & Blue (horizontal)

(Arty - Spare numbers - 45, 65/Red & Blue (horizontal))

HQ RE - 40/Blue
Fd Pk Coy - 48/Blue
Fd Coys - 49, 50, 51/Blue
Bridging - 52/Blue

(Engr - Spare numbers - 66, 74)

Inf Div Sigs - White & Blue (horizontal) (use serial number of unit or formation attached to)
MG Bn - 64/Black

HQ RASC - 40/Red & Green (diagonal)
Two GT Coys (RASC) - 71, 72/Red & Green (diagonal)
Four Composite Pls - 111, 139, 141, 142/Red & Green (diagonal)

(S&T - Spare numbers - 73, 84, 85)

Fd Ambs - 75, 76 77/Black
Fd Hgy Sec - 78/Black

(Med - Spare number - 86)

CREME - 40/Blue, Yellow, Red (horizontal)
Inf Bde Wksps - 91, 92, 93/Blue, Yellow, Red (horizontal)
Recovery Coy - 95/Blue, Yellow, Red (horizontal)

(Wksps - Spare number - 63)

Pro Coy - 79/Black
Div Post Unit - 80/Black
Mob Vet Sec - 96/Black


I've put together a listing combining this with an OoB for 20th Indian Div (in Saigon 1945), which I'll post up later

Cheers 

John