Full Space Marine Chapter in 2nd Edition

[Tofty]

As a child it always bothered me that the 2nd Edition Space Marine Codex didn’t specify exactly all the units that would make up a full army chapter.



It felt a little too vague for my liking, although I came to realise the lore reasons for most of this ambiguity, such as: Specific Chapter specialisations, as well as details like Terminator and Veteran squads in the first company not having set numbers, since Terminator armour is meant to be very rare and most chapters wouldn’t have enough to fill out a whole company. The amounts of auxiliary weapons like: Tarantulas and Rapiers, and the various support tanks, would also make sense to vary between chapters. Also, with bikes feeling a bit like an after-thought for most chapters; a bike squad could just replace seemingly any normal squad.
I just would have really liked an example list, perhaps for a well-established chapter with a tendency to be sticklers for following rules.





And then GW, the mad lads, went and put together the full Ultramarines Chapter, as shown in WD195 and while the available photos of it aren’t the best, as there are no close ups of any parts of it, it does help clear up a few things like:
All squads (except bikes and scouts) get a Rhino or Land Raider as transport,
They went for a 50-50 split on Terminators and Veterans,
They have seven 5-man squads of scouts, with sergeants and command units being in full space marine armour.
Two of the 10-man tactical squads in the 6th company have been replaced with four 5-man bike squads, with no sign of any attack bikes (although the new models may not have been released at that point and it’s not compulsory to include any),
They have three Whirlwinds, three Predators, three Razorbacks, four Rapiers, four Tarantulas, seven Dreadnaughts, three Thunderhawks and just one Land Speeder.

Some details don’t seem quite right, like only one land speeder, not a lot of bikes overall and surely there would be more support weaponry.
Most of this is surely down to them focusing on having all the squads present, with auxiliary units included as dressing, rather than to be accurate, with some items also perhaps being pre-production prototypes, while others were out of production and therefore more problematic to source.


What I’d like to establish, with help from the community, is what is the in-universe theoretically perfect Chapter layout, before ever having to adjust to loses and scarcity?

What each company consists of and how their command units are equipped? Does an 8th Assault Company Apothecary have a jump pack, for example?

I feel yes for 8th Company command units having jump packs. It would also make sense for the Company Master to be a Smash Cap, with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. The Standard Bearer would need addressing, with a smaller banner, or some other, more mobile standard pole. 1st Company command should probably be in Terminator armour.

Should there only be one Apothecary and Chaplain per Company?

There was a Chaplain on a bike model, which makes me think that, unless it was a Chapter that has a fully Bike mounted Company like the Raven Wing, that this would be just one of a number of Chaplains each company would have.
Using either the original Ultramarines Army Box: A Devastator squad (10), Tactical squad (10), Assault squad (10), 1 Captain, 1 Chaplain, 1 Librarian and 1 Apothecary, or the 2ed Space Marine Strike Force Box: Terminator Squad (5), Devastator squad (10), Tactical squad (10), Scout Squad (5), Dreadnaught, 1 Tech Marine, 1 Captain, 1 Chaplain and 1 Librarian; if these can be considered fairly standard deployed forces, then 1 Chaplain and Apothecary for 30ish Marines would mean around 3 of each per Chapter. This is roughly in line with the number of medics found in modern armies; 1 medic per platoon, with is 20-50 soldiers.

How many Dreadnaughts and Land Speeders?

For Dreadnaughts and Land Speeders; I had thought that there should be one for every two squads, so each company would have 5 Dreadnaughts, Land Speeders, or a combination of the two. Dreadnaughts would be paired with Terminator, Tactical and Devastator squads, while Land Speeders would go with Assault and Bike Squads. The arrangement of the 2nd to 5th Companies with 6 Tactical, 2 Assault and 2 Devastator squads allows for neat split of 4 Dreadnaughts and 1 Land Speeder. I suppose Bike squads would have to be allocated in groups of four 5-man squads to keep this arrangement. Land Speeders feel wrong paired with slow moving Terminator and Devastator squads, while Dreadnaughts would struggle to keep up with Assault units or Bikes, but perhaps Tactical units could have either?

What should a bike squad consist of? Should an Attach Bike count towards the squad numbers or not?

Codex says 3 to 5 Bikes in each squad, so perhaps a clean split of 3 Bike and 1 Attack Bike squads, along with 5 Bike squads would make the most sense.

How many Librarians, Tech Marines and Servitors?

Librarians and Tech-Marines are organised separately from the Companies, so their numbers are the least clearly defined.  There are different levels of Librarians, so I envision a pyramid type hierarchy with one Chief Librarian, then 3, 9 and 27 of the Epistolary, Codicier and Lexicanium ranks respectively.
Tech Marines are tied to Dreadnaughts, Support Weapons and some vehicles. Each Tech Marine can command up to 5 Servitors and a Servitor is needed to operate a Tarantula or Rapier. What happened to the Thudd Gun?

How many Support Weapons and Flying Transports?

I would suggest Support Weapons and Flying Transport quantities for a single Company would be about what was shown for the Chapter.

What other possible units that never got a model should be considered, like Headquarters Staff?


I’m aiming to collect this information into a simple spreadsheet, with every unit given an entry.

I wanted to attach Hi-Res images of the full article from WD195, but the files are too large to attach, so if anyone wants them, including 4500x3200 versions of the Ultramarines Army pictures above.

[jon_1066]

I think you are into angels dancing on the head of a pin territory here.  ie you are trying to be very precise about something inherently unknowable.

I would go with what you want it to be.  No one can tell you it's wrong, likewise no one can tell you it's right.  There is a mishmash of contradictory references throughout various articles, editions, books, etc. 

Your arrangements sound perfectly plausible and reasonable.  What is completely missing are the support services.  in WW2 rear echelon soldiers outnumbered front line combat troops.  That has only got more pronounced since.  You can imagine a Space Marine Chapter being even more skewed.  So command and control, intelligence, maintenance, armourers, supply, catering, transport, etc will outnumber front line marines.  So if you have 1000 marines in a Chapter then you can expect more than that in support services (including servitors and robots).  Plus what about all the support staff for the home world?  ie the home depot/base staff.  You might even have the same amount again.

[Tactalvanic]

Great old issue that was, I must get in the loft and dig some out and have a nostalgic read.

that aside - what jon says - pins angels needles camels thread and all that stuff. all a dancing.

Its been left relatively open especially back then, because its up to you and your imagination.

Justify bikers and horse mounted etc etc, its up to you. if you want to introduce some "realism" to the structure go for it - its your version of what should be and no-one can really argue... 

but as Jon alludes to there would be at least be fortress or planet or systems wide support supplying a small group of marines - then you have all the attached troops - maybe Titan legions, impy guards and so on. its as big as your imagination and storage will allow.

You could look at the spacemarine epic rules to - or net epic that might help you scale out and design the army you dream of, if only the frontline troops.

All the legions in theory had different tactical preferences and different deployment structures, and then there are all the self madeup legions. so go wild or not  its up to you.

But most importantly its good to see reference to old White Dwarf issues 

[Inso]

If you look at modern military, there tends to be fighting companies and support companies. The fighting companies tend to be pretty standard but the support companies off support to the fighting companies by way of providing attached units.

As an example, a tactical company may be required to fight in a heavily built up area so landspeeders wouldn't be much use. However, demolisher tanks would be very helpful. As a result, the tactical company commander contacts the support company and requisitions some demolishers for the task. The support company provides the tanks.

I'd suggest that a chapter has a lot of assets held in support so they wouldn't be marked up as part of a standard company UNLESS they were transport options.

With your question in mind, there would not be a specific company load-out for things like Dreadnoughts/vehicles because they would be held as support units for use with any of the companies.

With dreadnoughts specifically, a chapter only has so many of these revered artifacts and they tend to act as characters, rather than vehicles so it is unlikely that they would be permanently attached to a specific company unless they wanted to be.

I think that the only exception to this would be bikes/jump-packs. The assault companies would have permanent access to their own bikes and jump-packs so you would be able to field an entire company of bikers (if needed). Also scouts would have access to their own bikes to aid in their scouting duties.

The crux is... make it up. Use the restrictive company ideas that GW have provided for the core of the company and then attach cool stuff that you want to add .

[Red Orc]

I jumped a few editions, and then a bunch more editions, but mostly know about 3rd-5th (I do have a list for Ultramarines in RT when they were a Third Founding chapter and their Chief Librarian was a half-Eldar called Ilye Nastase... but this may be a fever dream brought on by too much Theakstons Old Peculaiar 35 years ago...).

So: the 'by the book' Chapter Organisation (and since Guilleman wrote the Book, you can assume the Ultramarines are sticklers for it) between 3rd and probably about 7th Edition was:

Each company consists of 100 Marines organised in 10 squads of 10. However, just because they're organised like that, doesn't mean they're necessarily fielded like that.

First (Veteran) Company:
Veterans can be fielded in squads of 5-10, either in power armour or Terminator armour. I think you're right that a chapter wouldn't necessarily have 100 (or more) suits of Terminator armour.

Second (Battle) Company:
100 Marines organised in 10 squads of 10. Squads 1-6 are Tactical Squads (Sergeant, two special weapons, usually something like flamer and missile launcher, plasma gun and multi-melta, 7 marines with bolter); squads 7-8 are Assault squads (with pistols and close-combat weapons: usually equipped with jump packs, sometimes with bikes, sometimes a rhino); squads 9-10 Devastator Squads, sergeant, 4 marines with heavy weapons, 5 marines with bolters.

Third-Fifth Battle Companies the same as the Second.

Sixth (Reserve, Tactical) Company:
100 Marines organised in 10 Tactical squads.

Seventh (Reserve, Tactical) Company:
as Sixth.

Eighth (Reserve, Assault) Company:
100 Marines organised in 10 Assault squads.

Ninth (Reserve) Company:
100 Marines organised in 10 Devastator squads.

Tenth Company:
100 Scouts organised in 10 squads of 10. Can be fielded as squads of 510 or as Scout Bikers.

In the 'Apocalypse' book, there is a 'Battle Company' formation; basically 10 squads (6 Tactical, 2 Assault, 2 Devastator), 8 Rhinos (the Assault Squads have jump packs); with a command squad (6 veteran marines) and a Razorback transport. I been building myself one of these, and have nearly finished it - only 6 editions late!

Because I've been building the 4th/5th Apocalypse Battle Company formation (ie I have my 106 Marines for the 2nd Company), I decided that all my support troops (bikers, tank crews etc) must be from the Reserve Companies so my Marine Bikers are from the 8th Company, and my tanks are crewed by 9th Company.

Then there are Dreadnoughts - these are effectively Veteran Marines (they may even be dead) but outside the normal 1st Company organisation.

hope that helps...

[Tofty]

Thanks for the comments everyone. Lots to think about.

I should probably explain my motivation behind asking these questions, as while I appreciate the sentiment of not over-thinking things; it was never my intention to use this theoretical perfect Chapter verbatim, just as a jumping off point. I find it easier to justify changes when I know what I'm changing them from.

So, this all started with the creation of a Squat army. I wanted to supplement it with some 3D printed models and since I can’t model bodies, clothing or faces; I thought I’d make some alternative Guild Bikes, as well as 28mm versions of some of the 6mm Squat vehicles found in Epic. I made models of the Iron Eagle gyrocopter, Overlord airship and Golliath mega cannon and was about to move on to the Thunderfire cannon.



Then saw this post: https://spikeybits.com/2016/02/squat-space-marines-the-littlest-armies-on-parade-ever.html

Little space marines? What fun and something I can just about model with the tools I’m used to (Solidworks). Initially I’d just aimed to replicate the contents of the original Ultramarines Army Box: Devastator squad, Tactical squad, Assault squad, Captain, Chaplain, Librarian and Apothecary.

However, as with all these things the scope has expanded and the idea of having a full chapter, even if it just exists digitally, has been too tempting not to try.



So far I’ve done all the Tactical, Devastator and Assault troops I should need, plus their Sergeants, so technically that’s 700 of the 1000+ units done. I've created all weapon options present in the Wargear section of the Codex, including the Multimelta and Autocannon heavy weapons for the Devastator units, despite them not having a model in 2nd Edition. I also made a Powermaul for the Assault troops.

I'm moving on to the Scouts or Bikes next.


I plan to make various major changes to the standard Codex layout to better suit the Dwarf aesthetic.

1st Company will be exclusively Terminator/Exo Squats, as these were significant models in the original Squats lineup. There are already some decent Exo Squat 3D models out there, so I'll be using those, but with modified arms, as the ones that come with it are a bit long and aren't holding the right weapons.

2nd Company will be just Bikes, since Bikes were such a big thing for Rogue Trader Squats. I might even make one of the reserve Companies entirely or partial Bike equipped.
This will make the chapter closer to the Dark Angel codex layout, but without the special rules the Deathwing and Ravenwing Companies had.
I also plan to make Trike and Quad versions, as well as perhaps a Hoverbike.

The Company Captains/Warlords will be accompanied by a 4-man Hearthguard squad.

Librarians will be more like Living Ancestors, perhaps with a Sidecar outfit for some.

Chaplains will be replaced with Musicians, like the RT ones or the one that Inso recently sculpted.

Tech Priest Squats existed in Rogue Trader so they are in theory appropriate, as did Squat Servitors, but I might replace them with full robots instead for ease of design. There is already a pair of decent 3D models someone's made for Squat Tech Marines, so I'll be using those, just with some changes to the backpack. These units will be will be supplemented with Guild Masters and their Guild members.

Apothecaries will just be Medics but still appear very similar.

Standard Bearers will have more of a poll with crests, rather than a fabric banner.

Dreadnaughts will just be Mechs with a Dwarf inside, or a full robot, as Dwarves have less of a problem with that sort of thing.

The Land Speeder might basically become an Attack Bike version of a Hoverbike, with more of a front and back seating arrangement.


There is still much I need to think about, but I've certainly got enough to be getting on with.

[Tofty]

Pictures added to the above post.

[Freddy]

These 3d printed vehicles are great, I especially like the huge cannon.

[fred]

28mm versions of the Epic Squat vehicles is just mad - especially the Overlord airship!!

Can’t wait to see what you do next.

Are you planning on doing the Squat infantry in 28mm, and just how many?

[Tofty]

These 3d printed vehicles are great, I especially like the huge cannon.

Thanks.
Files can be found here: https://cults3d.com/en/3d-model/game/tofty-s-space-dwarf-mammoth-cannon-28mm
It could really do with a second pass, as it lacks detail, but I'm happy with it's overall shape and dimensions.

28mm versions of the Epic Squat vehicles is just mad - especially the Overlord airship!!
Can’t wait to see what you do next.
Are you planning on doing the Squat infantry in 28mm, and just how many?

If I ever get to doing the Cyclops; now that would be truly mad.
Not sure if it would end up being physically longer than the Overlord (at 620mm), as upscaling from Epic to 28mm isn't as simple as just enlarging it by ~5x. My airship for example is around 10 times larger than the Epic model. I try and make sure that the vehicles are correctly scaled for the Squats that would be using them, so the cabin on the underside of the airship had to be at least 30mm tall, then I worked out from there. Same with the Goliath cannon and it's side control room. It's not surprising that GW made their larger Epic vehicles smaller than they perhaps should have, as metal is heavy and expensive. Were they making all kits in plastic at that point; would they have gone a bit larger? Who knows.

Next for the Epic stuff would be the Thunderfire Cannon. I started modelling it up, but I've been distracted with the Squat Marines and I wasn't quite sure what to do with it, as it probably needs some form of transport, plus the upper two gun barrels don't have an obvious way of being reloaded.

There's already a fair number of standard, quilted jacket wearing, Squat infantry models out there: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3385224
Originally by MrOrangeJumper over on Thingiverse, but others have added to and modified them, leading there to be over 100 unique models of them now, as well as weapon-less and headless bodies, allowing for near infinite variety. As I can't model anything like that well; there's little point in having a go myself and I'll just focus on vehicles, support weapons and little marines.

[fred]

Yes, the Epic Squat war engines all seem rather small - I’m not sure the order of manufacture of the different Epic ranges, but the Tyranid bio-titans are huge, but are much less dense, and some of the Imperial titans are pretty big - but nothing compared to the more recent plastic ones (which are more 1/200th rather than 1/300th). Some of the Epic stuff was plastic (marines, land raiders, and rhinos) and the Squat infantry, but I’m not aware of any of the larger pieces being made in plastic - maybe the idea was core sprues in plastic in high volume?

Looking forward to seeing more.