Rules for 17th Century Eastern Europe?

[SJWi]

Good morning. Inspired by some books I received for Christmas I've been thinking about starting 17th century Eastern Europe as a 2024 project. I'm unsure whether to do the Swedish/Polish/Others wars of 1655 onwards or the earlier period of the 1620s.  As I want to use either 6 or 10mm figures I may opt for the earlier period as Pendraken have a nice range of Poles, Ottomans and 30 Years War for the Swedes.  Before I jump in however I want to run to ground a decent set if rules. My current "go to" ECW set is Simon Miller's FK&P which has the advantage that I know them, but seems quite "Western focussed". Normally I steer clear of Helion's offerings but have read some good things about their "In Deo Veritas" 17th century rules. My main reservation about them is if they too are too "Western" focussed as regards troop types and formations. I know the Pike and Shot Society have "Twilight of Divine Right" including an Eastern rules supplement plus scenario books for the later period, but have heard mixed reviews of them. I tried to watch a video of one of the others in the series but found it extremely tedious and gave up.

Any thoughts/advice more than welcome. I'm happy to look at other rules in addition to those I have mentioned.

Thanks in advance. I'm never disappointed by the replies to my queries on LAF.

[Pan Marek]

There is a very comprehensive ruleset called "By Fire and Sword" by a Polish company, which is well translated into English.  Its written for 15mm, but I'll bet smaller scales will work.  It covers both Eastern and Western nations.  I've read through it, and was impressed.  I have not, however, played it.  I think someone will reply with their thoughts on how it plays.

[Cholmondely Percival IV]

There is an unofficial Eastern Europe adaptation for FK&P which I downloaded some time ago but have not got around to reading, primarily because I don’t have a copy of FK&P. Once I’ve remembered / worked out where it came from I’ll post a link.

Edit: And here it is:

https://www.talesfromawargameshed.com/uploads/5/3/5/4/53545793/fk_p_rule_adaptations_for_eastern_europe.pdf

[Vis Bellica]

And I've expanded upon the (excellent) Tales from a Wargaming Shed adaptations here:

https://www.vislardica.com/fkp-the-eastern-front

More army lists, different troop types etc.

[SJWi]

Chaps, thanks for the various replies. I had forgotten that I actually bought the small A5 "Player's Edition" of the "By Fire and Sword" rules back in 2022. Whilst beautifully produced and with some interesting mechanisms they seem very much aimed at the 15mm figures produced by the Company, and which are now very hard to source.  I have also found that I have a PdF copy of the army lists buried in my electronic storage.  I will admit that the "Eastern" adaptations and lists for FK&P interests me more. I use these for ECW and not having to learn a whole new ruleset from scratch does appeal. I also like the fact that I can base whole units as mini-vignettes for FK&P as I plan to use 10mm figures. The only possible downside is that I will need to buy a new gridded mat as I will probably opt for a 10cm grid as that allows a bigger gaming area on my 6 x 4' table.

I knew that I could rely on the LAF community to help me!       

[nickdives]

We have used FOG (R) for some large games, Pike and Shotte with some house rules and 10/11 Feb we are playing "Oh Vienna" at Beachhead, Bournemouth 10/11 Feb with Under the Lilly Banners with the Talon and Claw adaptations, not strictly Eastern Europe but almost!

[jcspqr]

We use Pike & Shotte.  Cossack and Muscovite army lists are easily created from comparable troop types in the existing Polish and Ottoman army lists.

[SJWi]

Nick, thanks. I have "Beneath the Lily Banners" v3 but don't know if I want to base Eastern Europe figures as they require. I also plan a "Williamite Wars" project in 10mm and will almost certainly use them for that.

JCSPQR, "Pike and Shotte" not really my cup of tea, albeit hard to say why! The are popular with my local club and have obviously stood the test of time.

 

[nickdives]

Steve,

We played, not yet finished, a game last night, abeit Louis XIV vs Dutch. All my stuff is based for FOG (R), the consensus is that it will work.

[jcspqr]

JCSPQR, "Pike and Shotte" not really my cup of tea, albeit hard to say why! The are popular with my local club and have obviously stood the test of time

Pike and Shotte delivers a playable game that can be easily scaled up to play big games (which is generally our preference).  It does suffer from a a lack of period specific appeal across its platform, but that applies to most all of the broader application rules in this list.

[Sandinista]

I have Ottoman, Persians, Mughals, Austrians and Venetians in 10mm and use Pike and Shotte. I find they are quick moving, with plenty of special rules to give flavour to the differing troop types.
Ian

[Codsticker]

I am quite happy with Pike and Shotte despite it's imperfections (every set has some) but I would imagine any set designed for the TYW would be able to accommodate 17thC Eastern Europe such as In Deo Veritas (Sigur's review here) or Twilight of Divine Right (a battle report by Sigur here)

[thestoats]

Pike and Shotte def isn't a bad system imo as its abstractions prevent historical inaccurate details. I would say that what differentiates Eastern European conflicts fromthe Thirty Years' War, however, would be the emphasis on cavalry over infantry. Pike and Shotte def isn't really designed for cavalry-only actions like other rulesets are.

[bluewillow]

I have been using pike and shot also for my deluge armies

Cheers
Matt

[SJWi]

Chaps,  I'm thinking of using the FK&P with the "Eastern" mods. This has the advantage that I know the rules and I can base my 10mm as a single unit. I think Pike and Shotte has various bases to make up a unit, but is this true of the "Epic" version? Does anyone know what the rules differences are between the core "Pike and Shotte" and its "Epic" variant?