The Doggerland Front; where are the Dutch?

[Gunbird]

@Daeothar: Verdomd goed

[Daeothar]

Bedankt 

[tin shed gamer]

These might be of some use to you when they're cast.( There's a few more to make up a mould)  although not technically Dutch they'd be very easy for you to add clogs to if that's something you were thinking of doing.

[zeppelfahrt]

Also, here's a period map of the area of the North Sea/Doggerbank. The orange area is Dutch territory.

What is the source of this map?

[Daeothar]

What is the source of this map?

It's a map of the Doggerbank as drawn up by Clement Reid in 1913. He mostly got it right, bar the flow direction of the major rivers. Later studies suggest that they flowed South instead, through the English channel. But I liked the idea of using a period correct map. I found it on the Wikipedia page on the Doggerland.

The orange area I projected from a map on the website of the Dutch Department of Defense through Photoshop.

These might be of some use to you when they're cast.( There's a few more to make up a mould)  although not technically Dutch they'd be very easy for you to add clogs to if that's something you were thinking of doing.

Nice. The above picture of the naval personnel in clogs is of them in uniform with non-regulation footwear. Most mariners came from fishing families and were very used on moving around on wooden ship decks on clogs. Which is probably how we invented ice skating in the first place, if you ask me

When on active duty, they would undoubtedly have been required to don their regulation foorwear instead though. These lads were obviously enjoying some shore time by the looks of it. But I could very well imagine some of these units wearing them when garissoned at some remote stronghold for a longer time. Boggy areas would certainly lend themselves well to clogs. After all, it's exactly why they were worn for many hundreds of years.


+++EDIT+++ Forgot to mention: I succumbed and ordered the book yesterday. Only €16,- , which is quite the steal I reckon

[area23]

I wonder if the marines dressed still the same too in 1940.
There's not that many photo's online of Dutch military 1914-1918. But 'mobilisatie' and 'grenswacht' does produce some references.

The clogs indeed wouldn't be used in service. In an alternative universe though they could be marsh specialists without movement penalties for swamps and bogs. 

[Metternich]

Perhaps they have Bokkenrijders - evil demons who ride giant he-goats.

[Daeothar]

Oh heck yes! 

I'm already checking the whole gamut of ethereal Dutch phenomena for suitable creatures and apparitions. Plenty to choose from, but I'll definitely shoehorn the Bokkenrijders in there. The Dutch variant of the Wild Hunt...

[zeppelfahrt]

It's a map of the Doggerbank as drawn up by Clement Reid in 1913.
+++EDIT+++ Forgot to mention: I succumbed and ordered the book yesterday. Only €16,- , which is quite the steal I reckon

Thank you. 

Did you use this map when devising your head-cannon? 

The Elbe estuary seems to be clearly defined but I am missing where Germany and Britain share a common 20 km border.  It looks like the Rhein-Meuse-Scheldt estuary and the Elbe estuary are both opening into what remains of the North Sea - is this correct?  If so, it appears that the Danes would have a role to play because their western border is now defined by the Elbe.

Sorry about all of these questions but I am honestly fascinated by the scenario you have introduced. 

 

[zeppelfahrt]

From what I am gathering, the area north of Forth, Forties, and Fisher would to some degree still be open to the Atlantic. 

[area23]

Oh heck yes! 

I'm already checking the whole gamut of ethereal Dutch phenomena for suitable creatures and apparitions. Plenty to choose from, but I'll definitely shoehorn the Bokkenrijders in there. The Dutch variant of the Wild Hunt...

Oh wow! That reminds me some of the old Suske & Wiske and Geuzen comics had stories centred around lowlands myth.
Also, I read somewhere Horsa and Hengist of anglo-saxon myth may have been Frisian warlords who invaded the Kent area.

Mata Hari was Dutch too by the way.

While writing this it occurred to me that there must be strange myths among whalers and fishermen for sure.

[Daeothar]

Thank you. 

Did you use this map when devising your head-cannon?

Pretty much, yes

The Elbe estuary seems to be clearly defined but I am missing where Germany and Britain share a common 20 km border.  It looks like the Rhein-Meuse-Scheldt estuary and the Elbe estuary are both opening into what remains of the North Sea - is this correct?  If so, it appears that the Danes would have a role to play because their western border is now defined by the Elbe.

Sorry about all of these questions but I am honestly fascinated by the scenario you have introduced.

Check out the map that Tin Shed Gamer posted; you can clearly see the borders between the different countries. Germany has a 20km wide border with the UK, straight North of the most Northward point of the Dutch territory. The Danish have the same straight North, and everything North of that is basically Norwegian.

I'd merge the two maps, to get a comprehensive picture, but apparently Adobe has taken umbrage to the fact I've been using the same fully bought and official version of Photoshop for over a decade now and has blocked access. Read the EULA boys and girls; apparently they can do that to force users to pay a monthly fee instead of letting them use their bought and paid for product from years ago 

So until I sort out this non-Photoshop situation, I'm forced to use the GIMP, which is all kinds of abhorent to me... I will do that map once I'm back in business though.

From what I am gathering, the area north of Forth, Forties, and Fisher would to some degree still be open to the Atlantic. 

Absolutely; the Doggerland map as posed by Reid is fairly accurate when it comes to its coastlines. What it did get wrong, as stated previously, is that the three major rivers (Rhine, Meusse and Scheldt) in reality flowed into the English Channel, so South instead of North. But as this is a wholy fictional setting, I'm more than happy to with a Northern direction. It does not interfere with my headcanon in the slightest, and if anything creates more opportunities for river crossings etc!

Oh wow! That reminds me some of the old Suske & Wiske and Geuzen comics had stories centred around lowlands myth.
Also, I read somewhere Horsa and Hengist of anglo-saxon myth may have been Frisian warlords who invaded the Kent area.

Mata Hari was Dutch too by the way.

While writing this it occurred to me that there must be strange myths among whalers and fishermen for sure.

Yes; I was also thinking of doing something with the whole spying thing. Apparently Vlissingen in particular was like West-Berlin in the fifties and sixties; all manner of agencies spying on eachother and everyone else. So with so much active spying going on, and the Dutch were participating just as vigourously, there might be something in there for off the table effects, such as pre-battle intel on the enemy's composition, or maybe off-table sabotage delaying or preventing units from appearing...

And also yes; Frisians were part of the Great Heathen Army, and founded several towns in England, so that might be another angle. Although I'm more looking at prehistoric times myself; the Hunebed builders, mixed with all kinds of other pre-Christian beliefs, sites and customs.

I received the book in the meantime, and many of the mentioned supernatural creatures and effects actually have straight Dutch equivalents; Germanic culture is pretty homogenous in that respect. Names might change, and some details, but most of the phenomenae are quite compatible

[Emir of Askaristan]

Although I haven't read the book, the maps presented above (and my own interest in Prehistoric Doggerland as a fantasy setting) indicate that the sea to the north, and ports/bases along it (Tees, Tyne, Forth, Tay, Cromarty, Scapa), would remain open. The British and German fleets would (in the main) be unaffected other than losing a significant area of operations.

A it strikes me that stranded warship marooned on the sands would make for an interesting location for a game. Perhaps with a view to operating it as a fortress "Landship" whose big guns could dominate quite a large area.


Anyway, really interesting thread Chaps. Keep it up.

[zeppelfahrt]

Hello again. 

In order to help me get my head around all this and give me a better framework for reference, I have combined the the Reid and Shipping Forecast maps.  It is reasonably accurate but I wouldn't advise using it for navigation. The names of the areas on the Shipping Forecast map will be underlined.

The "tiny" 20 mile strip that defines the new common border between Britain and Germany is shown with the large I on my map.  It was established prior to the war by an international agreement regarding territorial maritime boundaries. However, following The Shattering, it appears that this old arbitrary watery boundary is now to be found firmly upon - what I would argue - is Dutch territory, thus making its establishment by the old agreement moot. This would apply to similar maritime agreements with Britain as well.   

Here are some observations and questions that I have:

1) What are the new Dutch borders?  From what I can see, the new land mass is defined by the Elbe Estuary to the East and what I will call the Thames Estuary to the west. 

Does the new course of the Eems still define the Dutch/German border?  If so, would that new border extend northward to include all the territory west of the Elbe Estuary?

In the west it looks like the natural border with England would include everything east of the confluence of the Scheldt and Thames Estuary and extend northward into Dogger and occupy about 50% the area within. 

Do these new borders make sense or am I missing something?


2) Where is the buffer zone the the British have ceded to the Dutch?  Would this be the area in located in Dogger as mentioned previously?

3) The Ijssel splits in Ijsselmeer with the west branch passing just south Texel into the Thames while the main branch - the "New Ijssel" - passes northward directly into Fisher.  As the New Ijssel appears to give the Dutch sovereign access to the sea that they are looking for, why would they be digging to redirect its course?

I could easily go on but it is getting late here and I type so very slowly.  Suffice to say, I see lots of skirmish opportunities here and find the idea of steam-shovels digging away under a protective cloud of witte wieven quite attractive.   I have learned a lot about Low Country geography and folklore as a result of this thread and have become convinced Dutch forces would indeed play a major role in this game.  In fact, I don't see how it could realistically(?) be played without them. 

It has been lots of fun for me just thinking about it so far. 

Thanks Daeothar for getting the ball rolling.







 

[Daeothar]

Cheers; I'm liking this what-if into a what-if a lot too

Best I could do with the limited resources I have available at the moment, but here are the two relevant maps superimposed over eachother. It's not perfect and the (old) land contours do not match up perfectly, so we're not 100% accurate here, but for a general feel of the situation, it'll probably suffice.

One is the Reid map, the other one is the aforementioned territorial map of the Northsea, as agreed upon in the late nineteenth century, but officially ratified only in the last decade of the twentieth century (boy, do I feel old saying that ).

Just for clarity: UK is grey, France is dark green, Belgium is blue, the Netherlands is orange, Germany is light green, Denmark is yellow and Norway is red.

As you can see, the Doggerland extends a short stretch North of the Dutch territory. I had initially thought that only the German territorial corridor would be on the Doggerland, but as it appears, the Danish one does as well. Norway gains no additional land, but only barely! One could imagine that Denmark would be amendable to landswapping the territories West of the Elbe estuary, as it would be completely separated from the mainland. Also; Germany would no doubt be wanting to gain control over it, considering they would otherwise be leaving the mouth of the Elbe completely on foreign soil.

Oh; as an aside; for argument's sake, I have taken Reid's map as canon regarding the Doggerland boundaries and rivers, even though it could be argued that they should be different. It's a fictitious situation, and one has to start somewhere after all.

When looking at the boundaries and borders, it's interesting to see that for a substantial part, the Scheldt, Meusse and Rhine super-river flowing North actually forms the British-Dutch border, opening up to the sea only on UK territory.

Also, the Northern IJssel flows into the North Sea on Danish soil, after passing through German territory. So the consession that the UK would be willing to offer the Netherlands would be a stretch from roughly just North of the letter E in Dogger, making a straight line about North West, up to the new coastline.

The canal digging activities would then take place from the last bend North of the New IJssel river, to stretch due North West towards the coastline. They would probably be able to do this relatively fast. Remember that in our timeline, only 5 years later, in 1923, the Afsluitdijk was constructed, one of the world's greatest engineering marvels of the time. And this is just the digging of a canal, something they would have been doing for hundreds of years already.

I hope the above makes sense. Taking the existing oceanbound territorial borders, straight as a ruler, and projecting them on new land, with rivers flowing through etc, would obviously only be the starting-off point in the case of the Doggerland rising. I'm sure that more pragmatic and natural solution would be created once the realities of the new lands become more obvious.

Some strategic considerations I could imagine being pursued: The Netherlands wanting everything East of the Rhine/Meusse/Scheldt/Thames river and West of the Elbe. Germany wanting the Danish territories I mentioned earlier. The British wanting to secure the banks of the super-river with a corridor on the East bank, against German incursion, etc, etc.