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Author Topic: The Doggerland Front; where are the Dutch?  (Read 3279 times)

Offline zeppelfahrt

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Re: The Doggerland Front; where are the Dutch?
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2024, 01:15:56 PM »
Yes!  It all makes perfect sense to me now. 

Indeed, lots of "etc., etc "possibilities here when applying Ried's geography - brilliant idea. well thought out.

Thanks for putting me on the same page




Offline area23

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Re: The Doggerland Front; where are the Dutch?
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2024, 12:48:52 PM »
In any case I have decided to use the Copplestone Turks I had lying around for ages for converting into freikorps to make a mighty Dutch verkenningseenheid instead.
Adding putty breast pockets and press moulding the Adrian helmets should work.
If you don't believe in lead, you're already dead.
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Offline zeppelfahrt

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Re: The Doggerland Front; where are the Dutch?
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2024, 02:26:35 AM »
In any case I have decided to use the Copplestone Turks I had lying around for ages for converting into freikorps to make a mighty Dutch verkenningseenheid instead.

Are these reconnaissance troops? 

Offline area23

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Re: The Doggerland Front; where are the Dutch?
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2024, 12:10:26 PM »
Yes, small group from a bigger platoon for now.

I suppose the Dutch would be going for pragmatic solutions, recon squads, border guards, defensive waterworks and failing diplomacy.  :D

By the way, yesterday I read somewhere that the Dutch army indeed was stocking French M.15 Adrian helmets already during the Great War mobilisation.

Offline zeppelfahrt

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Re: The Doggerland Front; where are the Dutch?
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2024, 10:03:44 PM »
Yes, small group from a bigger platoon for now.

I suppose the Dutch would be going for pragmatic solutions, recon squads, border guards, defensive waterworks and failing diplomacy.  :D

By the way, yesterday I read somewhere that the Dutch army indeed was stocking French M.15 Adrian helmets already during the Great War mobilisation.

Splendid. I am looking forward to seeing how they look when finished.  Glad to hear that the Adrian Helmets worked out.

I agree with the pragmatic approach in regards to reconnaissance imperatives with new natural boundaries. 

Consequently, I have been working on a small unit of Eisentragenhexeputzerntroopen that will play a role in the greater German effort to explore and secure the new land mass between the Weser and the Eems. 

I have been using figures from Knucklebone's Last War series for most of them.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 10:06:50 PM by zeppelfahrt »

Offline Daeothar

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Re: The Doggerland Front; where are the Dutch?
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2024, 10:08:31 AM »
Can't wait to see what you guys come up with! :)

I'm still thinking of either going with May40 miniatures with a headswap to Adrian helmets, or something a bit more hands-on with either plastic or 3D-printed parts instead.

I'm not a button counter; I'm only concerned with the general appearance. So I'm not too fussy about webbing or pockets not being correct for the era and nation. The most important things I look out for are puttees and late 19th century rifles.

Also, it might be appropriate to do some troopers, or maybe even a full squad wearing gasmasks. They might be useful when trying to identify individual squads. Another nice idea might be engineering squads, working with civilians to dig the new IJssel canal to the North-West. They might be armed with pickaxes and entrenching tools, creating a more CC-oriented unit. maybe proficient with explosives as well?

I have a handful of plastic GW banshees which would be perfect as Witte Wieven, and a trio of scarecrow men, which are perfect as the (very) local Juten Jan lurking monster.


As for the Dutch army's disposition. Like I mentioned, I can see the Dutch army being quite overstretched, having to patrol suddenly triple or quadruple the amount of border they used to. Also, due to the adherence to their neutrality, a purely defensive stance would be maintained.

The way I see it; the Southern borders are reasonably well protected with electrical fences, put up by the Germans to stop Belgian refugees from fleeing North. The Eastern borders were already strengthened, but would require slightly less manpower, now that Germany would have to spread its own forces thinner as well.

As mentioned in the book; the established frontlines in Belgium and France were basically frozen, as all beligerents siphoned forces away to operate in the Doggerland. So in the South, things are pretty much stalemated as there is simply not enough manpower to conduct anything larger than small unit raids across the no-man's land. Remember that the battlefields of Belgium and France were quite compact, when compared to the vast new plains of the Doggerland.

Which is why, in the Doggerland, mobile warfare would be more common, mostly due to the enormous stretches of land that needed to be covered. Add to that the (initial) complete lack of logistical networks, and it would be extremely daunting to maneuver anything larger than a battallion for any extended time.

Which is why I think (light) cavalry would see a resurgence. The lands have turned magically verdant almost overnight, so there is plenty to eat for the horses. Operating tanks and cars this far from established lines and supplies appears to me to be a very challenging endeavour, especially at that tech-level.

So, the Dutch would probably establish border markings pretty quickly. At the time, stone border markers were still a very common thing, and I can see survey teams, accompanied by detachments of army engineers planting them along the new borders every kilometer or so, as was customary. A single roll of barbed wire across the ground might be wished for, but I reckon they would only be used at strategic locations, simply due to the ridiculous amounts required.

At points, let's say every 10 kilometers, a small outpost would be established. Think a single bunker with a lookout post, occupied by a (partial) squad. Every 50 kilometers, a larger stronghold would be built, with a platoon commander and larger contingent. Possibly with stables too. It's likely that these locations would have a radio as well. From here, mounted patrols would ride along the borders, checking in with the smaller posts, and maybe relieving or resupplying them as scheduled. Closer to the outposts, patrols on foot would also be conducted.

There's a distinct Roman Limes feel to this setup, and the Dutch might well have been influenced by the concept.

There would be virtually no depth to the lines; they would be there only for observation and to mark Dutch sovereignty. More deeply inland, there would be larger locations (fortresses?) from where interdiction forces could be launched in case of an illegal border crossing.

Think squadrons of mounted infantry or even proper cavalry. Units that could move relatively fast across the wild lands. I could maybe even see the use of captured vehicles, but as I said previously; those would be very limited, both in numbers and operational use. Spare parts would be very hard to come by, and the terrain would be challenging at best for anything wheeled. Tracked vehicles would simply be too slow to be used for interdictions. They might still be used in defense or assaults though.

And because of the connection to the land, and therefore larger presence of magically attuned individuals in the Dutch population, I've been toying with the idea of allowing a second magic user for the Dutch, or to maybe give them access to more schools/disciplines.

To counterbalance that, vehicles would be way more expensive.

I've read several battlereports, and tanks (and especially) armoured cars are really powerful in the game, so the above might require some tweaking to make sure the Dutch are still a balanced force to play, but some small changes might make them a very unique force to field... :)
Miniatures you say? Well I too, like to live dangerously...
Find a Way, or make one!

Offline YPU

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Re: The Doggerland Front; where are the Dutch?
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2024, 11:23:00 AM »
I havnt been looking at the game a lot, but was wondering about the dutch perspective for a bit. Very cool to see your take on it!

If you want a mobile force, don't forget that we had about as many dogs for pulling carts as infantry in that era.


(Belgian counterpart shown here)


Adrian helmets do seem to make sense, and heck they look so spiffy! let me know if you find some you'd like printed mate.

EDIT: You should drop may40 a line, not sure what is going on with his stuff currently but cant hurt to ask.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2024, 12:38:40 PM by YPU »
3d designer, sculptor and printer, at your service!



3d files! (here)

Offline area23

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Re: The Doggerland Front; where are the Dutch?
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2024, 12:03:56 PM »
I'm not a button counter; I'm only concerned with the general appearance. So I'm not too fussy about webbing or pockets not being correct for the era and nation. The most important things I look out for are puttees and late 19th century rifles.

I'm thinking the same way. My biggest worry is to find the right mix for Dutch uniform green.

Cavalry, yes. great idea. The Back of Beyond in the North Sea. I don't have the book, but I suppose roads and railroad tracks aren't present yet? Armoured cars were a new invention and prone to breakdown and malfunction.

Offline Daeothar

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Re: The Doggerland Front; where are the Dutch?
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2024, 12:41:36 PM »
...If you want a mobile force, don't forget that we had about as many dogs for pulling carts as infantry in that era.

Dogs! Yes; brilliant idea!  8)

I could see those being used in quite a large number indeed. Both as draft animals and as guard/track/attack dogs. They would be perfect for garrison duty along the many hundreds of kilomters of wilderness border. I'm gonna run with that for sure...

As for printing helmets; thanks for the offer mate, but I can do the printing myself. It's the designing that's eluding me still (Well, almost; I did use Tinkercad to redesign that particular deodorant stick recently, but that's hardly a challenge ;) ).

I'm thinking the same way. My biggest worry is to find the right mix for Dutch uniform green.

Cavalry, yes. great idea. The Back of Beyond in the North Sea. I don't have the book, but I suppose roads and railroad tracks aren't present yet? Armoured cars were a new invention and prone to breakdown and malfunction.

I do have the (near) perfect recipy, as I've also done some WW2 Dutch. It's in my painting journal; I can't recall it from the top of my head since it's been a few years, but I'll look it up and post it here. Bear in mind that the colour was quite varied before the early twenties, as there was no agreed upon standard. And different suppliers all had slightly different colours.

Which does make painting them more interesting I reckon!

As far as I can tell from the very limited background in the book, there is virtually no infrastructure in the Doggerland. So no roads or railroads for sure, but I can imagine that the Dutch would change this pretty quickly. If only because border patrols would be taking the same route every round, so pretty soon, small footpaths and horse tracks would be created all along the borders.

Also, I can imagine dirt roads being worn into the landscape eventually when supplying outposts/fortresses. Especially when using trucks, horses and carts and the like. And then there's the digging effort in the North, which would require steam engines, and other large equipment. Probably these would be brought in by boat from the old mainland, but once on site, they would have to be operated in the dirt.

And they would make for some very compelling raiding targets too, I reckon!

Offline zeppelfahrt

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Re: The Doggerland Front; where are the Dutch?
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2024, 01:33:17 AM »

And then there's the digging effort in the North, which would require steam engines, and other large equipment. Probably these would be brought in by boat from the old mainland, but once on site, they would have to be operated in the dirt.


This might be useful for the New Ijssel canal project.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1801517

Offline Daeothar

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Re: The Doggerland Front; where are the Dutch?
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2024, 10:42:19 AM »
Ooh, that's pretty!!  8)

Offline zeppelfahrt

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Re: The Doggerland Front; where are the Dutch?
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2024, 10:12:13 PM »
Thanks TSG; I've used basically the same Exclusive Economic Zone map. This division has been in existence since halfway the nineteenth century, but has only been ratified in the early nineties! Before that, it was more or less a gentlemen's agreement, but the division was largely the same.

@ area23: obviously the marines (were they called Black Devils then already?) would play a major role. But since the entire Doggerland has risen and has quickly become abundantly verdant, their role would be largely the same as standard infantry units I reckon. But they should definitely be there, yes!

Here's a first draft of my head-canon for the whole setting, shoehorning the Netherlands into it :)

So, the Dutch: below average troops (exception being the marines, obviously), very little to no armour, machine guns or field artillery (perhaps something captured, but very rare) and a larger than average reliance on magic and cavalry...


I have printed your "head-cannon" and keep it in my copy of AWT. 

I now cannot imagine any action on the Doggerland front without some Dutch Involvement.   

How are the figures coming along?


Offline zeppelfahrt

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