Scythed Chariots- Real or a Western Fantasy?

[Easy E]

I am going to go out on a limb and start with a premise that many of you will reject outright. 

Premise: Scythed Chariots were never a thing, and instead a literary trope used by Western authors to demonstrate the exotic foreign nature of their foes and the superiority of "western" (Greco-Roman) culture over the "barbarians". 

Why would I say something so obviously absurd!  There are a variety of Western authors who talk about how Scythed Chariots were used against western Heavy Infantry forces.  Examples:

- Persians at Cunaxa vs a combined Persian/Greek force
- Persians at Gaugamala vs Alexander's Macedonian Pikeman
- Mithridates Amnias River vs Romans/Bithyians
- Mithridates Charonea vs. Romans
 
Those are off the top of my head.  The ancient authors loved to talk about the horrendous damage such exotic weapons could do, with the Amnias River being a perfect example!  Notice the Chariots were effective against Bithyians, but not Romans. The Scythed Chariots never seemed to work that effectively against western "Heavy Infantry" only skirmishers, allied light forces, etc.

In addition, I have been unable to source any references to scythed chariots in non-Western sources.  Indeed, the Achaemenid Persian Oxus Treasure has a model 4-horse chariot made of gold.  However, it is not scythed.  I could not source any artwork, paintings, or descriptions from non-western sources of a Scythed chariot.  If you have some, I would love to see it!   

Finally, Western "historians" of the time were just as interested in entertaining an audience as they were educating.  They were often explicitly hired to be propaganda creators with Alexander being a prime example!  Ancient Historians are also not above using and re-using popular scenarios or tropes in their writing to serve their own propaganda purposes.  Therefore, the Scythed Chariot becomes a useful trope of the exotic, dangerous, yet inept "barbarian" armies vs. the superior, western heavy infantry of solid, middle-class, free men!  They are almost always defeated by the superior discipline within the ranks of the Heavy Infantry.     

Now, I look forward to everyone telling me how wrong I am!  I am eager to see some sources and details, because my limited skills and time could not find them.

Thanks for your help in advance.

[Cat]

Early literary reports of origin and usage do indeed come under academic questioning:
"Reconsidering the Origin of the Scythed Chariots"
https://conservancy.umn.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/ac9873ce-4727-443a-9645-cefad450fc5f/content

However, later use against the Romans by Antiochus and Mithridates are better attested, including captured ones being paraded in the Lucullus' Triumph:
"The Scythed Chariot"
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/miscellanea/chariots/scythedchariots.html
 
Somebody invented them and started using them somewhere in the east at some point.

[FierceKitty]

Not to mention that actual blades for wheel fittings have been excavated in China.

[Easy E]

I had a feeling that there would be some more data outside of the geographic scope I was searching.  I had a feeling China or India would have more data on scythed chariots than what I have found for the Near East. 

 

[Easy E]

Early literary reports of origin and usage do indeed come under academic questioning:
"Reconsidering the Origin of the Scythed Chariots"
https://conservancy.umn.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/ac9873ce-4727-443a-9645-cefad450fc5f/content

However, later use against the Romans by Antiochus and Mithridates are better attested, including captured ones being paraded in the Lucullus' Triumph:
"The Scythed Chariot"
https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/miscellanea/chariots/scythedchariots.html
 
Somebody invented them and started using them somewhere in the east at some point.

Thank you for an excellent post.  However, we are going by what the ancient historians wrote.  For example, Xenophon and Herodotus' accounts of the battle against Croesus are not even remotely the same.  Xenophon talks about the chariots while Herodotus talks about camels.  Neither one was an eye-witness to the battle.  Xenophon at Cunaxa is much more credible, BUT he could have been leaning into known tropes of the time and hitting audience expectations as well?     

I am coming from the basis of extreme skepticism of the traditional written sources.  Therefore, I am really interested in archeological or physical evidence such as artwork, parts (as Fierce Kitty pointed too), or even records of parts, maintenance, training, horses, etc.     

For example, we have clay cuneiform tablets discussing the provisioning of Chariots from the Bronze Age.  Do we have something similar for Scythed Chariots?  We have reliefs from the Bronze Age of using chariots.  Do we have anything similar for Scythed Chariots?

Like I said, I am coming from a point of extreme skepticism.  Probably more than is warranted, but more for the "sake of argument".

[ithoriel]

To play Devil's Advocate to your Devil's Advocate why would we trust images or reliefs? Do you think the painters and sculptors were attached to the armies as war artists?
Unreliable witnesses the lot of them. Making it all up from stories their grandad spun when they were children! 
I will only accept as evidence actual chariot parts!

Well done Fierce Kitty!
 

[Cat]

Actual scythed chariot parts would be a very rare and lucky find.  These were not the rides of kings or nobles, and not the stuff of grave goods.  If they existed, it's still not surprising that we haven't found any.

[FifteensAway]

Of course they existed!  I've seen them in movies.  That seems good enough for wargamers everywhere.   

[Easy E]

To play Devil's Advocate to your Devil's Advocate why would we trust images or reliefs? Do you think the painters and sculptors were attached to the armies as war artists?
Unreliable witnesses the lot of them. Making it all up from stories their grandad spun when they were children! 
I will only accept as evidence actual chariot parts!

Well done Fierce Kitty!
 

LOL! Looks at Medieval artwork of cats.  You are 100% right!   


My extreme skepticism of the sources is exaggerated for the sake of my question.  However, the very first link that Cat posted has the historian arguing that you can not take Xenophon or Ctesias at face value about the topic because they were not writing history as one of the points for his thesis that Scythed Chariots were designed to take-out Greek Hoplites in Egypt by the Persian King Artaxerxes.  So, such skepticism of the written sources is not without "professional" merit. 

[ithoriel]

LOL! Looks at Medieval artwork of cats.  You are 100% right!   


My extreme skepticism of the sources is exaggerated for the sake of my question.  However, the very first link that Cat posted has the historian arguing that you can not take Xenophon or Ctesias at face value about the topic because they were not writing history as one of the points for his thesis that Scythed Chariots were designed to take-out Greek Hoplites in Egypt by the Persian King Artaxerxes.  So, such skepticism of the written sources is not without "professional" merit.

And yet the article cited doesn't doubt the existence of scythed chariots, merely Nefiodkin's assertion that they were a counter to Greek hoplites. The main thrust of the article is that scythed chariot's existed, that they were devised earlier than Nefiodkin asserts and that Nefiodkin misunderstands how, when and why scythed chariots were deployed.
I understand the position you have taken and that you are looking for more solid evidence for their existence than you have at the moment but a phrase including babies and bathwater might be appropriate here. 

[Harry Faversham]

Thing is, do you fink yer toy army looks better with a passle of scythed chariots?
If yer do, games a good 'n, innit?

[Cubs]

The evidence I've seen suggests they were an early form of ride-on lawnmower.

[AKULA]

This looks legit to me

[cadbren]

Outside of harassing lightly armoured troops I don't see how they'd be of much use. Against heavy infantry there is a risk of the scythe breaking off, buckling or doing damage to the axel upon contact with the first armoured soldier holding a shield. The chariot would also have to be less than a metre (the length of the scythe) away to cause any damage. This is just asking for the crew or horses to be killed at this range given spears are longer.
A psychological weapon perhaps gambling on the enemy always fleeing at their approach.

There is an example from the Tain Bo Cuailnge (Irish story involving CuChulainn) where the hero's chariot is covered in spikes and hooks. This might make some sense as an anti-boarding defence, ie stopping the enemy jumping onto the chariot but conversely the sharp bits could be liability to the crew themselves. Given that no chariot remains have ever been found in Ireland let alone scythed ones, it's all just speculation.

[Easy E]

And yet the article cited doesn't doubt the existence of scythed chariots, merely Nefiodkin's assertion that they were a counter to Greek hoplites. The main thrust of the article is that scythed chariot's existed, that they were devised earlier than Nefiodkin asserts and that Nefiodkin misunderstands how, when and why scythed chariots were deployed.
I understand the position you have taken and that you are looking for more solid evidence for their existence than you have at the moment but a phrase including babies and bathwater might be appropriate here. 

Yes, I get that.  My point is that existing scholars (Nefiodkin, in this case) take the primary written sources with a grain of salt.  It isn't just me, a random kook on the internet.   

I mean, look at Herodotus as an example of an unreliable narrator!  This made me think that maybe other "historians" from the time are as reliable as he was?  I mean, look what he says about Etruscans as exhibit A!  I have fallen for his tricks one too many times all ready!       

Now, as a wargamer it doesn't matter much.  We have no idea about ancient combat anyway and we will never really know better than we do now unless something amazing happens!  Since we don't know, I can do whatever I really want.  Most wargamers use them as a single unit, when that is probably not how they were used at all, and the ancients police don't come by and break anyone's knee caps.